Melody Wilding: How do you become fully confident and in control of your emotions and experience at work? It’s by mastering your own psychology and that of others. On this show, we decode the science of success, exploring how to get out of your own way, and and advance your career to new levels without becoming someone you’re not.
I’m Melody Wilding, best selling author, human behavior professor, and award winning executive coach. Get ready, and let’s put psychology to work for you. Hey, make sure you’re signed up for the free training I’m hosting on January 9th at 3 p. m. Eastern. It’s called From Overlooked to Recognized and Rewarded. Earn 100k more in 2025 without sucking up or selling out. This no fluff actionable event will show you how to speak up in meetings and impress the company’s leaders.
Without offending your colleagues, I’ll give you the magic phrases, how to guarantee your next promotion by doing this one thing daily. And it only takes five minutes, how the highest paid top performers instantly build credibility with higher ups, even if they’re remote. This secret is one psychological trick you can begin using immediately.
I’ll be sharing many of the same strategies. Our clients at top companies like Google, Amazon, and more have used to land a hundred K bonuses and raises head to melodywilding. com slash training to grab your spot. Now it’s 100 percent free and I can’t wait to see you there.
Setting boundaries at work sounds pretty simple in theory, right? Just say no. That’s all you have to do. But in practice, you probably know it’s far, far more complex than that. Especially if you are someone who takes pride in being reliable and going above and beyond. So where is the line between being someone who is dedicated and burning yourself out?
Well, today we’re going to get into that exact question with Dr. Sharon Martin. She’s a licensed psychotherapist who has spent the last 25 years helping perfectionists and people pleasers reclaim their lives through better boundaries. So whether you are struggling to say no to yet another project, you are feeling guilty about not answering emails at midnight.
Or you are wondering if your helpfulness has crossed the line into unhealthy territory. This episode is going to give you a lot of practical strategies for setting and maintaining boundaries that stick. So Sharon, welcome. I am so honored to have you here and so excited to talk.
Dr. Sharon Martin: Oh, thank you. It’s, it’s really my pleasure.
Melody Wilding: Yeah. And as I was mentioning in your intro. You’ve spent the last 25 years working with people like, I’m going to raise my hand here, perfectionists, people pleasers, and your work really focuses on that intersection between perfectionism and boundaries. So I would love to hear what made you zero in on that connection.
And then I’d love to talk a little bit about. How does this show up in our work lives? But first, like what landed you here?
Dr. Sharon Martin: Yeah. Yeah. Um, it’s a great question and. I think this is often the case with, with psychotherapists is that we end up going down a path that has some personal connection for us in terms of what we specialize in and where we really focus our work.
So that’s certainly the case here as well. So, yes, raising my hand as, um. I like to consider myself a recovering perfectionist, um, at least on good days. It’s, it’s certainly a constant struggle, I think, with anything that we’re consciously trying to change or undo or do differently for ourselves. But I think I was, I was in my early 20s when I really started to realize that, My perfectionism was getting in the way for me, both personally and professionally.
And then when I started working with clients, I started to see the same pattern with other people as well. Um, that a lot of the qualities or traits that I thought were really helpful or good, um, maybe personality traits ended up being Maybe I just say they’re sort of excessive. Um, I think a lot of these things can be good in moderation, but when we, um, you know, go, go a little too far with them into that perfectionism territory, um, they no longer are very helpful for us.
And like I said, that they really start to create some barriers for us and they hold us back in different areas of our life. Um, and, and then part of what I recognized was that. At least part of the solution to the perfectionism issues was having better boundaries. But the challenge was the perfectionism itself was really getting in the way of them setting the boundaries because I was I was so concerned about what other people thought of me and wanting to be liked and to be, you know, easygoing and, um, get all of the gold stars and accomplishments.
And again, like having this external validation that being more assertive was really difficult. And And I think maybe part of that was not maybe completely understanding maybe some of the nuances of setting boundaries that, you know, we can probably get into this more often. We really do think a lot of it is just about being assertive, and that is part of it and saying no, but there’s a lot more to setting boundaries as well in terms of, um.
You know, even our self management and setting limits for ourselves and understanding our own needs. Um, so, so anyway, it all started to come together in terms of understanding that this was really, um, you know, I think a lot of people struggle with setting boundaries, but I think it’s a particular struggle for people who tend to be more on that perfectionistic side, um, because we do tend to want to really present ourselves.
In a very particular way, you know, both at work and, you know, in our personal lives as well. And, um, we, we don’t want to be, you know, seen as, you know, slackers or doing something, um, in, you know, in a less than kind of way. We really want to have that validation from other people.
Melody Wilding: Yeah. And could you also just detail, what are the signs?
Of perfectionism at work, because you mentioned being really concerned with what other people think about you. And I think for a lot of people, that’s not the first thing that hops to mind when they think about how perfectionism may show up in your professional life. So before we get more into boundaries, because definitely, I mean, you’re speaking my language here, like the gold stars and, and all of that.
And, and. I definitely, I relate to a lot of your story because this has been, like you said, we teach what we most need to learn in many cases, and I’m right there with you on this being a. Good days, bad days sort of thing, but what are some of the like hidden signs of perfectionism that may come up in your professional life?
Dr. Sharon Martin: Yeah. So, so some of it is the, like I was saying, it’s, we really want to have external validation. So we want to get some, some feedback that’s letting us know that we’re doing a good job. Um, so there’s that need for constantly doing things. Okay. to to have accomplishments. So it’s very much about that external sign.
So we will work and work and work over work. Often sometimes it’s really getting into the minutia of things, the detail oriented nature of things, wanting to literally make them perfect. Um, sort of losing the big picture on what’s really important in some of our tasks. It can also be Procrastination.
Sometimes people don’t realize without recognizing that there’s a fear that’s holding us back. Um, you need, you’re completing something. We’re starting something because we’re concerned that we’re, we’re going to fail. We’re not going to do a good job at something. There’s also what I, what I would just say is.
small, like not taking ch again for that same kind really perfections will r that they know that they that fear of failure is a as well. And then I think that seems a little bit p is because you think peop Perfectionists are, on the one hand, going after all the gold stars, and they usually have a lot of accolades, but they also tend to feel very inadequate at the same time, so no matter what you accomplish, there’s often a feeling of failure.
Either, well, now what? I have to do something bigger and better now. It’s never enough, so you never feel quite fulfilled, no matter what you are doing. Um, yeah, and, and just that feeling of, I’m really not good enough. And so that’s that constant need to prove yourself and wanting the other, you know, the outside validation again, because you really internally feel like there’s something lacking or there’s self doubt there.
Um, that’s part of the perfectionism also.
Melody Wilding: Yeah, when you explain it that way, it makes a lot of sense then. The connectionism, the connectionism, the connection between perfectionism and boundaries because if you don’t feel like you’re enough, you may overextend yourself, take on more with the hopes that you will feel enough.
And you don’t have good boundaries. You, you don’t want to offend people, offend people by saying no. And so you were saying, uh, you mentioned something along the lines of people maybe misunderstand or don’t fully understand, the nuances of boundaries in the workplace.
Hey, make sure you’re signed up for the free training I’m hosting on January 9th at 3 p. m. Eastern. It’s called From Overlooked to Recognized and Rewarded. Earn 100k more in 2025 without sucking up or selling out. This no fluff actionable event will show you how to speak up in meetings and impress the company’s leaders.
Without offending your colleagues, I’ll give you the magic phrases, how to guarantee your next promotion by doing this one thing daily. And it only takes five minutes, how the highest paid top performers instantly build credibility with higher ups, even if they’re remote. This secret is one psychological trick you can begin using immediately.
I’ll be sharing many of the same strategies. Our clients at top companies like Google, Amazon, and more have used to land a hundred K bonuses and raises head to melodywilding. com slash training to grab your spot. Now it’s 100 percent free and I can’t wait to see you there.
What are some of the things like illuminate us? What are some of the common misconceptions or nuances that people don’t quite know from the outside when it comes to boundaries at work?
Dr. Sharon Martin: Yeah, I think like you were saying, we often think about boundaries as limits.
Or a way of trying to essentially this is this is a big misconception that the boundary is a way to try to control what somebody else is doing to try to get them to do or not do what I want them to do, which I think is is a really unfortunate misconception that a lot of people have because if that’s the way you go about trying to set boundaries.
It’s frankly, it’s not going to be very effective. Um, and it’s, it’s not going to be relational. It’s not going to build the relationships that we want with people because nobody wants, again, at work or at home, nobody wants other people trying to control them and tell them what to do. Boundaries are really.
I think maybe one of the simplest ways to think about them as a type of self care, and by that I mean that a boundary is meant to help you get some of your needs met. So once you understand what it is that you need, then you can start setting the boundaries that are going to help you get those needs met.
And again, when you frame it like that, it’s really about doing something for yourself that’s going to help you be healthier, happier, more productive, etc. Rather than about what other people are doing and trying to either limit them or get them to do something that you want them to do.
Melody Wilding: And
Dr. Sharon Martin: so, again, I mean, that’s going to be a much more effective approach when you go about setting boundaries and it’s ultimately.
going to be really, I think, more fulfilling for you because once you, again, once you recognize what it is that you need, being able to meet that need for yourself, it is going to be, it’s going to help you again, just be in the world in a much better way. Um, than if you’re going through life, um, with unmet needs and trying to control other people.
Melody Wilding: Yeah. It feels a lot more empowering and proactive and positive to say, I’m doing this to meet my need rather than I’m trying to keep people out. And it’s, you’re, it’s almost like you’re on offense rather than defense, which just moving through your day is a much better place to be. And I think that brings up an important point too, which we can get into in a little bit is that boundaries aren’t always set in response to something.
They may be something you set as an expectation. Right, proactively. Is that would you say that’s right?
Dr. Sharon Martin: Oh, absolutely. Yes. And again, I think we tend to be more aware of the boundaries that we’re setting in response to something that’s maybe somebody is doing something that offends us or is detrimental to us in some way, right?
We were reacting to that by saying no, or I need a change here. And certainly that’s valid and needed in many situations. But you’re right, there’s a lot of boundaries that we are setting that we probably aren’t even thinking of as boundaries, um, you know, in the same way. Um, again, it could be just a boundary that you’re setting for yourself, or it could be almost like a guideline or a rule that you have Set again, maybe unconsciously, but it’s just a sort of a guiding principle that you use throughout your life as a way of conducting yourself in the world or in the workplace.
Melody Wilding: That’s a much more helpful way to think about it. I love that. Like a guiding principle or it’s, it’s like, do you, I know you have kids and, uh, you know, when, when you’re a kid, you have those bumpers on the bowling lanes so your ball doesn’t go into the gutter, it’s kind of like that. That’s kind of like your boundary.
It’s, it’s a way you interact to keep. To keep things on track. Um,
Dr. Sharon Martin: yeah, I think that’s actually a really nice visual. Um, and you know, you said, you know, kids use that, but I, you know, I might still use those too, because I’m not very good at bowling. You know, so again, you know, right. No shame in any of that.
Like having some, some guidelines is really important in life because it does help us stay True to who we are and what we believe in, and I think ultimately, you know, the other thing that very much guides boundaries is values. And, you know, and I think that’s sort of what you’re speaking to here is again, is that our values are going to help us determine the boundaries that we need so that we can live our lives.
In a way that, that aligns with that.
Melody Wilding: Yeah. And, and let’s, because I think it’s helpful for people to understand more broadly what boundaries are. But when, when you think about the idea of healthy boundaries at work, what are some of the key things that come to mind for you? What does it look like for someone?
To have healthy boundaries at work, especially in ways that, okay, yes, you may need to set some guidelines around your, your calendar and when you check email, but maybe also some of the things people may not, may not immediately connect as. Oh, that’s actually me setting a boundary and I, I need to do that.
Dr. Sharon Martin: Well, it’s funny when you ask that, because honestly, once I, once you start thinking in terms of boundaries, you see boundaries everywhere. It’s like when you get, get a new car, right. And everybody has that car now. Um, because I mean, while boundaries are something specific, they are actually quite general.
And so, so much of what we can, what we are doing. Cool. about boundaries. So um, as simple as closing your
Right? It’s letting people know, can they come in? Should they knock? Um, or putting a sign on the door, right? We can frame that as a boundary that gives some sort of instruction to people about how you want to be treated, um, how you’re going to interact with them. So much of, you know, of the information that we are giving to people, the expectations that we said about what I’m going to do or what I’m not going to do, when I’m going to do it, how long I’m going to stay in this meeting, you know, right, I’m letting, you know, an expectation about when I’m going to be available or when I’m going to be able to get back to you.
Those are all different kinds of boundaries that we might set. So, so, so many different things that, um, I don’t know, for example, If you have a certain, you know, um, example in mind either, but, um, I mean, I feel like almost anything that you’re doing is really a boundary.
Melody Wilding: Yeah, it’s, it’s so true. And like you said, one of my, one of my favorite phrases of all times is we teach people how to treat us.
And what I hear and what you’re saying too, is that sometimes there are boundaries we Articulate like this is my limit here. I can only stay in this meeting for this time. But other other times it’s more subtle through your actions. What you choose to do or not do or when you respond or don’t respond.
Is that right?
Dr. Sharon Martin: Yes, absolutely. That’s a fantastic point. Because again, I think that’s, that’s something that sometimes we miss is that the more obvious boundaries are the, um, the verbal or the written communications where I’m very, you know, consciously and overtly, um, saying something to you about, again, what you can expect from me or what I need or want from you.
Um, but absolutely. I mean, these kinds of things, like if I have set a boundary for myself that I’m going to stop working at 6 p. m. every day, that is a boundary, which I may or may not have communicated. To other people again, that that might be very dependent on the situation or the type of workplace or the type of work that you were doing, whether you need to do that right as a self employed person.
I don’t have anybody that I necessarily need to communicate that to, but it might be a. boundary that I have set, um, that I hold myself to so that, um, it serves a purpose for me so that I have made a separation between, you know, work time and family or personal time or so that I do not just work, work, work into the evening, um, and get caught up in a project or something like that.
Melody Wilding: Yeah. And I want to loop back to how we identify those needs and set those boundaries. But I want to also talk to the person who’s listening and who is thinking, well, how do I know when I’ve crossed the line from being helpful? Because you’re always told, you know, take initiative, volunteer. That’s how you get opportunities, you know, say yes, be a team player.
However, how do you know when those. Good intentions have crossed into unhealthy territory or people pleasing.
Dr. Sharon Martin: Well, I think oftentimes tuning into your feelings are going to be a big clue for us, um, when we need to improve our boundaries. So often things like feeling disappointed or frustrated, resentful, tired, overworked.
Are often big clues for us that there’s a boundary issue because it’s like I’m feeling mistreated. I’m feeling not appreciated in this situation, right? That means like, I haven’t had the boundary that I need to protect myself. there. Um, and then again, certainly there’s a connection between our feelings and our physical bodies as well.
So for some people noticing how their body is feeling is also really helpful. Um, I might even say to people if you are noticing that you are not sleeping well, you’re getting sick more often, you’re fatigued. Some of those again, more physical signs can also be signs that we’re having some boundary issues.
I mean, they can be signs of Other forms of stress as well, um, but again, I think oftentimes those are good clues that something’s going on with the boundaries, um, that are, you know, either not strong enough or not, not the right boundaries, um, for us as well.
Melody Wilding: That’s really helpful because I’m sure there are people listening who may just, may try to override those senses or maybe so detached from themselves that.
They don’t even know what’s going on in their body, but I think more often than not, we may feel those things and then we rationalize. We don’t just rationalize them away. We say, Oh, I’m just being sensitive. I need to work harder. I need to get over this. So and so is handling it. I should be able to handle it too.
Yeah. And so what, what do you say to that? I’m sure you have clients who come to you and say that, like, I should be tougher than this and I, I, I don’t, I don’t want to have these needs and I’m just curious. Yeah. What would you say to someone in those shoes?
Dr. Sharon Martin: Well, I think you’re right. I mean, we, we’ve normalized a lot of this.
So that it almost becomes an expectation that if you don’t feel, you know, at least a little burnt out, maybe you’re not working hard enough or, you know, if you’re not working on weekends, you know, you’re not pulling your weight or, you know, some of these things that I think are ultimately, you know, really unrealistic expectations, um, that we have of ourselves, um, then get in the way of, you know, Of what we’re trying to do.
Um, so I, I think what, what I would say to people here is number one is try to tap into that, you know, some sort of core belief that your needs matter and your health matters and you know, you matter as a person and everybody has needs. You know, you may just not be hearing it from other people or seeing that other people.
Are, are feeling the same way or needing the same things, but really we’re more alike than we are different in this regard that, um, you know, everybody, for example, needs time off or needs a lunch break or needs to feel respected. These are universal needs that we have. There’s nothing, you know, unique or special or strange about you needing or wanting that.
from your workplace. Um, you know, so I think if we can start trying to normalize some of that, it can certainly be helpful. Um, you know, and then that allows us to then feel like it’s okay to either make some changes to get those needs met or ask for some changes from other people. Again, there’s no guarantee that we’re going to get it from other people, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong for us to ask.
And right, put that out there and say, this is what I’m needing or I’m wanting in this situation or in this job. Um, because if we certainly know that, you know, we’re not going to get it if we don’t ask for it or make it known that we need something. So, um, you know, I think there’s a benefit in trying to ask for it.
Um, Even if it doesn’t happen, I think there can still be a benefit, um, for us, or maybe even for other people at our workplace too.
Melody Wilding: That’s a, that’s a great point too, because I think, you know, if you’re, if you’re a helpful person, you’re probably also a selfless person in some ways. And so if you can, maybe if you’re not initially motivated by helping yourself, all right, but, If you know, if I, if I speak up, if I ask for this, or if I even just set this expectation that that’s going to create a model for other people or allow other people to feel safe saying what they need to.
And I think that can give, you know, us the opportunity. Us who are motivated by helping other people can give us a little more reason and impetus to actually set those boundaries, which is great. Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Martin: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with you. I mean, I think it’s a great point that, um, boundaries, even boundaries that are for us can benefit.
other people. I mean, I always say this just about self care in general, is that, you know, by you taking the time or the energy or the money, you know, to kind of put into yourself in terms of self care, obviously it benefits you, but it tends to benefit everybody around you. If not in the short term, at least in the long term, I feel like, you know, right, if you’re going to show up to work and be healthier, you Be happier.
You’re in a better mood. You’re more productive. You’re more creative, right? That does benefit everybody else. Um, you know, and then I always say, you know, something along the lines of things, you know, it’s like your employer is not giving you, you know, paid vacation out of the goodness of their heart, right?
They, they realize that it benefits them for you to be rested, right. And to have time off. You know, so it’s that same kind of idea that, um, yeah, setting boundaries can absolutely help the people around you. They will benefit as well.
Melody Wilding: Yeah. Fantastic. And so let’s talk about how you do this because we may know we need to set boundaries, but actually making it happen is a very different thing.
And especially when you’re someone who puts yourself last and puts everything else ahead of you. So let’s take that example you said earlier about like, Ending work at 6 p. m. How would you, how would you suggest actually putting that boundary in place and making sure you follow through on it?
Dr. Sharon Martin: Well, I would probably start with, like, I would want to know where are you at with that right now?
Like, there’s a difference between if you’re going to tell me like, right now, I usually work until nine o’clock, um, versus, you know, sometimes I leave at six or sometimes they leave at 6 30. Right? So it kind of gives us idea of like, how close are we to where we want to get? Um, I’m a big believer in. small changes.
And I really believe that small changes can have a big impact. So again, if you’re the person who right now is working till nine o’clock, I might suggest to you, well, what if you could get that to eight o’clock or seven o’clock? Maybe you’ll get to six o’clock some of the time or all of the time. But maybe that’s not where we start.
Like, maybe we try to make some incremental Bye Changes and think about how that might work for you because sometimes really A smaller, modest change can have a big impact, and I think part of what holds us back is getting into the all or nothing thinking of, I need to do all of it, right? I need to completely change this behavior, um, or this dynamic that I have going on when maybe it doesn’t need to be as dramatic.
drastic as you think for it to be impactful. Um, so small changes can be helpful. Incremental changes can be helpful with this as well. Um, but I also think what you’re getting at is the need for us to be really clear with ourselves. about what it is that we need in this situation, why it’s important to us, and then that can allow us to brainstorm, to really think about all of the different ways that we can get that need met.
So, I mean, honestly, if this example, we’re almost a little bit ahead of ourselves of where I would actually suggest that people start with the process is that they, you know, first start But what’s the problem? What do I need to be different in my, um, work situation? So, for example, if we’re working with a problem of.
Um, my family is upset that I never have dinner with them, or I’m upset because I don’t have enough quality time with my family in the evening, I’m not there to help my kids with their homework, or maybe the problem is I’m really tired and I’m, you know, feeling overworked and unhealthy or something like that.
Any of those problems could potentially be solved with this boundary of leaving work at six o’clock, but that’s really more of a solution. And there’s probably other ways that we could get this same need met potentially. So again, like, depending on which of these we want to, you know, go with, so, um, you know, let’s just pretend like the problem is we want to spend more time with our family in the evening.
Um, so that, that, you know, again, we could then go, okay, well, what are all of the different changes that I could make all of the different boundaries that I could set in order to get that need met? And while this, this seems pretty sensible that leaving work at six o’clock could be a good boundary for this situation, it’s not the only one.
Right? So the more options that we give ourselves, the better really when we’re starting out with setting a boundary, and then we can choose the boundary that makes the most sense for us. It feels like it’s gonna, uh, work the best for us. Um, you kind of think about, well, not all boundaries are created equal.
Um, and again, some of that’s just individual. What works for me might not work for you. And I often will tell people when you’re looking at that list of possible boundaries, it can also be helpful to separate out what are the ones that I have control over, meaning I can change my behavior to get that need met.
Versus a boundary where I need to ask somebody else to make a change, right? I have less control over that. That doesn’t mean it can’t work. It just means I’m relying on somebody else to do something different as well. And they may or may not be willing to do it. Um, so. If you can find a solution that is something that is completely within your control, you’re more likely to be able to do it.
Um, and again, if you know, using myself as the example, if it’s really that I now I’m clear that I’m going to stop working at six o’clock and that really becomes a self management issue for me, right? How am I going to arrange my work so it can be done so Before six o’clock, how am I going to manage my behavior so that I stop at that particular time?
And, you know, don’t continue on doing, doing work.
Melody Wilding: Yeah. And what I hear in what you’re saying, I wrote down the phrase, set yourself up to win. And that touches on everything from what you were saying, like if, if you want to make 6 PM your hard stop time, but you’re now working until nine, don’t expect yourself to magically just.
at six, that’s going to be too much of a leap for you. So set yourself up to win. Maybe like you were saying eight 30, but if you set your expectation too high and you miss it, you’re going to feel even worse about yourself and set your motivation back even more. So starting small, I mean, also has a very.
It makes it more possible, and therefore more likely you’re going to do it so that you gain confidence from actually following through on the boundary. You see the results from doing it. And so I think that’s a great, um, A great takeaway for everyone that, you know, it’s not, it’s not, um, it’s not giving up by starting small.
It’s actually very strategic to do it that way.
Dr. Sharon Martin: Yes. Yes. I agree. A hundred percent. I think it’s very much a proven behavioral change method that I think those smaller changes make it easier for us to stick with the change. It’s almost like going on a journey. dramatic diet and you’re going to, you know, give up, you know, entire food groups.
It’s really hard for people to stick with that long term. Um, but if For whatever reason you needed to, you know, stop eating particular things if you were, you know, going to gradually remove things from your diet, it would probably be easier for you to stick with that. Same kind of idea that if you get yourself there incrementally, I think it’s, yeah, it’s more doable and it, and it feels like I’m not asking this impossible thing of myself.
Melody Wilding: Yeah, and okay, so there’s probably people listening who are like, Sounds great, but you don’t understand in my industry, you, you were saying before, Sharon, that they’re, unfortunately there’s a normalization of overwork and some people may be listening and say, but my boss or in my company, everyone responds within seconds to emails and you are expected to be working over the weekend.
And so how do you set boundaries when you’re in a workplace culture or your entire industry? Doesn’t have
Dr. Sharon Martin: boundaries. It is a good, good question. And I knew you were going to ask me that, and I wish I had a better answer. I mean, really, I think the best answer I have is, is kind of more of the same, which is try to think about what are some small changes that you can make.
It doesn’t sound like in that kind of situation again, like completely changing and to say, I’m just not working on weekends or I don’t respond to calls after hours is not going to work if you want to work in that industry or that company, that team, sometimes those are hard realities. Um, that we have to accept.
Um, but I do think often there are small changes that we can make. And I can’t guarantee you obviously that this is always going to be the case, but I, I would encourage people to give it a try because I think sometimes we assume that something’s not going to work without having tried it. And this feels like it might be one of those situations where it just has become standard that this is what everybody does and we all accept it, but has anybody tried doing something different?
And what happens? Could we give it a try and see again, like a little bit, like what if I waited a half an hour to reply? Instead of right instantaneously, um, or could be something that you might talk about with some other people that you work with and see what their thoughts and feelings are and see if together, there might be a way to come up with some solutions.
Because again, you’re probably not the only one who is feeling this way and struggling with this. And so it might not be an individual problem that needs an individual solution. And that could feel, I think, very empowering as well to feel like I’ve got support from the other people that I work with, and maybe there’s a way for us to figure this out.
Melody Wilding: Yeah. And I want to go back and just add to that. I think something you said earlier about the fact that boundaries are not just for you, they can serve other people too. And so if you can. If you’re in an always on sort of environment, but you can make a case about how actually, if I had more time to spend with this assignment, it’s going to mean higher quality for, for this client.
Or if you’re able to send me questions in advance, I can, I can, I can give you more thoughtful answers on the spot. If you can explain why it might be in the person’s interest. They may be willing to adjust that standard, like you were saying, and you don’t know until you try. And so, um, that was just coming to mind for me as you were talking about it.
Yeah, yeah, I
Dr. Sharon Martin: love that. I think that’s a great addition, really. I mean, to be able to explain to people why you’re making a change can be very helpful. Because it can be quite jarring for people if we just start setting boundaries. To them it might feel very out of the blue, like, why are you doing this?
Like, you know, why you, you know, ruffling feathers or being difficult about this, but it is often the case that if they can understand the why, then we can get people on board with it.
Melody Wilding: Yeah. And so speaking of which, speaking of other people, maybe not accepting our boundaries. I’m, I’m always saying to my clients that, you know, when you, when you start setting limits, your You’re rocking the equilibrium of that relationship.
It was working one way, you know, with you agreeing and accommodating, and now you’re changing that. And so people may naturally push back. And so what are some, do you have some tips for dealing with people? When they, when they do make comments like that, like, why are you being difficult? Or can’t you just get this done?
Everybody else is doing it. When, when they refuse to accept your limit, what, how do you, how do you handle that? How do you stay your, stand your ground?
Dr. Sharon Martin: Well, I think the, the first important part of this is like you were saying is realize that that is normal. Almost expect that you’re going to get some pushback and also recognize that that does not mean that people will not respect the boundary.
Sometimes it is that people need both the explanation and they need time to adjust to the new situation. So sometimes that can sort of resolve itself if we give people that, that time and that space to adjust to the changes. And again, with some explanation of why we’re doing something different. Um, But again, I think that, you know, there’s a lot of the same things that we have mentioned before.
Sometimes, you know, the smaller incremental changes can be helpful here. We can also really tune in and be clear with ourselves about why we need this boundary, how important to us it is. Think about, is this truly a deal breaker? For us. Does it need to be this boundary in this way at this time? Or is it possible that a different boundary?
Um, could there be some compromise here? So again, is there another way to get this need met that might also work? And again, the other thing I think again, we want to come back to is consider who else might support you in this situation. So you’re not again feeling like you’re completely alone in this situation.
Who are your allies? That can help you navigate a difficult situation. If there’s, you know, for example, one particular person, um, in your workplace that is pushing back on something, getting some support can be helpful with that as well. Again, whether that’s internally or external. Um, to the workplace. Um, support is really helpful with helping us navigate the stress of it.
But also I think sort of problem solving and again sort of talking through and thinking about what are my different options? Because again, I think sometimes we just sort of lock into feeling like this is my boundary and I need this person to respect it exactly the way I have said it or communicated it to them.
Sometimes a different boundary will work nearly as well, or we can think about changing our approach to it, a different way of communicating it that might be more effective as well.
Melody Wilding: Well, it’s ironic because what I hear and what you’re saying is that someone may like pendulum swing from their perfectionism making them have no boundaries.
Then swinging to like super rigidity around this, this has to be my boundary. And, and the irony is like, you may go between those two extremes. And what you’re saying is you want to find that middle ground. And I love the approach you mentioned where maybe we can find a different approach, maybe what’s the workable compromise here becomes more of a joint problem solving exercise versus well.
I want this, which other people may not respond well to because they’re also trying to get their own needs met. And so approaching it as, okay, we both, we both have these goals. How can we get there together is a lot more cooperative and I’m sure would feel a lot better for both people than, you know, us being on our own sides.
Dr. Sharon Martin: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s really another misconception that a lot of people have is they tend to think. A lot of their boundaries are deal breakers, but really, very few of their boundaries should be deal breakers, and I don’t mean this because you shouldn’t have standards. You absolutely should have some standards, but things that are absolute deal breakers are really things that are like safety issues, legal issues.
Maybe moral issues that again that there’s a handful of things that you just absolutely can’t budge on that There’s you know, really going to be you know bad consequences if we if we don’t have those standards or those expectations But the vast majority of boundaries are Negotiable and I think a lot of people don’t realize that there’s again A lot of different ways for us, just ourselves to get our needs met.
But again, in the, in a relational context and thinking about you have a need, I have a need, let’s work together so that we can both get at least most of our needs met in this situation. And again, this is true at work or in your personal relationships and, and you can actually have very effective, um, consistent boundaries that are negotiable.
Melody Wilding: Yeah, and I think that’s a important place to land is that this skill of setting boundaries, it’s going to serve you professionally, personally, and if you’re, even if you know, even if this is something you’re working on, even if you can find low stakes opportunities to build your boundary muscle in your personal life or in other areas with your, with your friends, with some of your, you know, acquaintances, then you’re building that muscle to be able to do that in.
The work context. So you have that, the skills translate.
Dr. Sharon Martin: Yes, yes. That’s another thing that I love. I love telling people is right. Look for the opportunities to practice setting boundaries where you know you can be successful. Um, and again, right, you can do that in your personal life and then bring it to work or think about again, smaller boundaries or people who are easier to set boundaries with at work and start there, build up that success and then move on to things that are harder or people who are more difficult to work with.
Melody Wilding: Love that. Sharon, thank you so much for sharing all of this great insight and tips with us. This is, this is something that I don’t think gets talked about enough. And to your point, like once you start thinking about boundaries more, you start seeing them. everywhere. And so I think this is going to be really enlightening and useful conversation for everyone.
Tell people where they can find you. I know you have a number of books. And so what’s the best place people can connect with you?
Dr. Sharon Martin: Yeah, well, my website is live well with Sharon martin dot com. And then I think, um, Based on what we’ve talked on today, the books that are the most relevant are, I have the Better Boundaries Workbook and then the Better Boundaries Guided Journal, which is um, sort of a shortened, more journal, um, yeah, format of that.
And then I also wrote a book about perfectionism called the CBT Workbook for Perfectionism. So those are all available wherever people buy books.
Melody Wilding: Yes. Yes. And I, I also have that on my shelf back there as well. And what I love about all of your work is how actionable it is that, that you don’t want people to just stay in the theory.
Okay. It’s great. You learn these things, but what are you going to do to put this in practice in your life? And all of your books are really, really geared towards that. So thank you for being here. It’s been such a pleasure. Excited to talk to you again soon.
Dr. Sharon Martin: Okay. Thank you so much.
Melody Wilding: Thanks for tuning in to today’s episode of Psychology at Work. If you enjoyed the show, I’d be so grateful if you could take just a minute to rate and review wherever you are listening. It’s how we reach more professionals just like you. And if you’d like to see even more content on how to feel more self assured, grounded, and in control of your emotions and reactions at work, follow me on LinkedIn or head to the links in the show notes.