How do you become fully confident and in control of your emotions and experience at work? It’s by mastering your own psychology and that of others. On this show, we decode the science of success, exploring how to get out of your own way and advance your career to new levels without becoming someone you’re not.

I’m Melody Wilding, bestselling author, human behavior professor and award winning executive coach. Get ready and let’s put psychology to work for you.

Today I’m honored to have a world recognized expert on the show to tackle a challenge we all struggle with when it comes to managing our own psychology at work and influencing others. And that is difficult conversations, whether it’s pushing back on a deadline, addressing a coworker who’s taking credit for your work, navigating a disagreement with your boss, knowing what to say.

And how to say it without damaging relationships. That is the hard part. You might pull back and say nothing at all and stew in frustration, or you might blurt out something that you later regret. And let’s be honest, so many of us overthink these moments. We play these conversations on loops in our heads, wondering if we got it just right or what we could have done better.

That’s why I am so excited to have Jefferson Fisher on the show. If you have spent any time on social media, you have probably come across his viral videos where he teaches people how to argue less, communicate better, and handle tough conversations with confidence. He has this very rare ability to break down high stakes moments into very simple, actionable strategies that anyone can use.

No vague advice about how to be a better listener or staying calm. Jefferson gives you actual words to say, small shifts that can completely change the tone and outcome of a conversation. That’s a big part of why I love his approach. And add to that, that he is one of the most warm, genuine humans I have ever met in my life. This interview is going to be a little different from the usual podcast format you’re used to. I originally interviewed Jefferson for my Forbes column, and that conversation was so packed with value that I went back and I asked his team if we could share it here on the podcast, and luckily they very graciously agreed.

So thank you. You’re going to hear that the flow is a bit more natural, which I hope you enjoy. It’s more just him and I having a conversation, and I had to bring this to you because it is filled with powerful insights that can truly change how you communicate. You’ll hear me say this in the episode, but I want to emphasize it again.

I get sent a lot of books from publishers and Jefferson’s new book, The Next Conversation, truly stood out to me. He goes beyond surface level advice, he gets into the deep nuances of how we handle tough discussions. The things that I have not seen talked about anywhere else.

And in that book, he presents a three part communication system. Say it with control, say it with confidence, say it to connect. It is fantastic. I think we can all agree we want more of that, and I highly recommend you get yourself a copy of the book. So without further ado, let’s dive into the conversation with Jefferson Fisher. Well congratulations. ’cause it is just, thank you. I mean, you know, my, my first question there, was about just how, like your skyrocketing success. And of course, I’ve followed you for a long time. Huge fan. thank you. And I just, I really love your style. Like I really just, I love, I.

the nuance, like this combination of simplicity, but nuance that you bring to everything. Yeah. Uhhuh. And, you know, I was telling your team, I truly did love the book. Like I get a lot of books. Oh yes, you were. Oh yeah. You got the book. I, so I have it about that. I think you might be, oh, there it is.

I, you might be, I, honestly think you might be the first one outside of my family and team. To have read it really outside of like my circle. I know of, I’m sure maybe Penguin has given it to other people, but in terms of what I know or people I’m gonna talk, I think he might be the first one. How’d you like it?

I absolutely loved it. I absolutely Oh, that makes you so happy. Yeah. I’m not just like saying that again. ’cause I get books sent to me like, oh, I bet every day. And sometimes I’m like, where did this come from? Yeah. This shows up. Yeah. I truly. I loved it. I loved it. Thank you. I love, the combination of the fact that it’s, there’s so many small, actionable things, like you have these great, you know, swaps in language to use.

I love that. But there’s also so many mi like fundamental mindset shifts. That I think were, and that’s what I really loved. And I mean, you’re a fantastic storyteller. Thank you. I know where you learned that. I wrote every word. Yeah. Thank you very much. Yes, it fantastic storytelling too. ‘Cause you, can tell when someone has written their own book versus, you know, having Yeah.

Help with it and Oh, you would know. You would know more than me for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That means a whole lot to me. Really It does. Because I was wondering, Yeah, I didn’t know when they said, I think she said that they send it off to you. And I was like, oh gosh. We’re gonna have, somebody’s gonna read the book, who’s not part of my internal team who, is supposed to encourage you.

It’s supposed to say a good thing. So I’m, yes, that makes me feel great. Awesome. Yeah, I’m very glad to like it.

Fantastic. Very well structured. Very well presented. sweet. So I guess let’s, dive into the actual interview of things. So let’s, I would love to hear, I’m sure you’re gonna get this question a lot on your book tour, but again, your, you have skyrocketed in terms of your success online, and I would love to, like, from, your perspective, what do you think it is about your approach, how you talk about these topics?

Even the topics you do choose to talk about, what do you think it is that people have resonated with and been pulled to so much? I think there is a sense of familiarity and also a sense of, well, this, it’s within reach. Like when I give a tip, I’m not saying things that they probably have never heard before. Like people know what confidence feels like and they know how to explain confidence and they know how to speak confidently most times.

But I think I give very short, concise packaged tips that feel like, oh, I’ve, heard this. I’m familiar with this topic at the same time going, oh, I can do that. And so it’s that little light bulb moment of I can do that. That I think triggers them to want to watch more. I think some of it also is just my personality.

I might have been one of the first to start really making videos in my car and to, it just related to people in a way of they’re not seeing an attorney in a suit behind a desk and with law books and, you know, talking about. You know how many billions of dollars I have, all these billboard attorneys. So I think it’s been a process of, hey, this guy feels approachable and it’s positive and it’s really helpful.

I don’t do it for any other motive, but just to help them. And it’s not something cutesy or trendy and it stays consistent. I think it, it provides value to people that can be truly immediate, that they can apply, you know, as the book is titled in their next conversation, is it’s really true.

Yeah. And that, is what I love, that it’s, the tip, you use the word packaged, which I love because it is, it’s like, it’s, oh, I can do that. But more importantly, I can do that immediately because everyone’s attention spans are so short that if it’s like, oh yeah, that, that sounds useful in theory, but the things you give and the situations you talk about, like you said, are so real life, relatable to people that it, truly is something, I think the power of it is, like you said, they can use it now in the very next conversation, and that’s the power they see the change right away.

Yes, absolutely. Just that immediacy to be able to use it because, so ma, so much of the advice I feel like I, in my, the way I’ve seen it before my videos, a lot of the advice that was out in communication was really just be an active listener, be more empathetic, get curious, like, okay, that sounds great, but how do you, how do you really put it into practice? Where my videos go, no, Here’s what to do. No is say this, And people are like, thank you, that’s what I needed to hear. So something a little bit more practical, a little bit more concrete. I think that helps. I think combination with just my personality.

I. I, like to say I just kind of stay in the pocket. You’re not too overbearing, but you’re not too minimum and you just, you’re just happy to be there, and when you can smile and try and give value to people, you, really never go wrong.

Yeah. that warmth comes through. Yeah. Yep.

That warmth and that care comes through and people know that. Do you, happen to remember what one of your, do you remember your first car video? Like, do you remember what it was about or,

oh yeah.

You do?

Yeah. It was my, the very first car video was how to argue like a lawyer part one. Before that I was exploring goofy videos ’cause I didn’t know how to use Instagram.

I mean, you and I grew up were, Instagram was just, you took a pretty picture of your coffee and put a X Pro filter on it. You know, like that was, I would look at this latte art. And so videos really changed everything. And I was trying out like, audio dub, like your lip syncing. And I, was just trying out the app.

I had things of my kids on there because at the time I only had 800 followers, which brought people from law school and college. And then I I made a video about my law firm and they just didn’t feel like me. Melody just, it felt like a total, it just felt gross. Like I was just selling myself. I was like, who’s gonna care?

who cares about this? That’s not, I knew that was not gonna fill me, and it was not going to make when you’re just asking. And so when I made my first how to argue like a lawyer video part one, I didn’t really know what I was doing at all. I. And made it, and that was the first time I had got like a thousand views.

And I thought I had just, like cracked a code. I had gotten a thousand views, I had like 50 likes and I was like, oh my gosh. It was wild. And then I just kept making more. And then the fourth one, part four, that was the one that went, viral.

Wow. Yeah. And, so just going, back to the book, ’cause you’re, what I certainly, I found this in my own journey, but, doing clips is different than writing a whole book.

And how Yeah. How did you come up? ’cause you have these three rules in the book that you talk about. How did you, what are those three rules and how did you arrive at those being the most important?

Yeah, great question. the three rules or whatever you’re going to say, whether it’s your truth, your story, whatever it is that you’re wanting to speak, is you need to say it with Number one, say it with control. Number two, you wanna say it with confidence. And number three, you wanna say it to connect.

And, it was difficult in a way of going, okay, this guy makes videos in his car and he’s just making these less than one a minute clips throughout everything. How do you structure this in a book? And so I had to put the clips aside and say, okay, these clips work because they’re a part of me and part of what, how I communicate and how I talk to my clients and how I teach them, I need to go back to what’s Jefferson’s framework, what I want people to know, if I could put it in a book.

If I could download my brain, my framework for how I communicate and how I make these videos so that other people can make their own, how would I, do that? And so I put it of course in the, rule of three. And that would be, first, you need to control yourself. People often think it’s to control the other person.

Now you need to control yourself. That’s, where the strength is. You need to say it also. With confidence, and confidence, as you know, is it’s a feeling. And you do that by using an assertive voice, how you communicate. You wanna say it assertively to make sure you get your point across. Not in a rude way, not in a way that offends people and, is dismissive, but in a way that asserts your needs.

And then I knew that at the end of the day, number three, was to say, to connect. So how do you handle these difficult conversations? How do you say things that you feel that when you left the conversation, you said what you needed to say. Y’all are both on the same page and you don’t feel like you’re on uneven ground.

You both kind of go, all right, I feel good about that. You have a meeting of the minds. You have that acknowledgement and that understanding and that connection.

What if you could stop coming home from work too drained to be fully present with your loved ones or quit lying awake at night replaying work conversations and what ifs isn’t a time you finally heard colleagues remark on your new found confidence and you actually felt it deep down. How good would it feel to lead meetings with poise? Your ideas heard and respected without second guessing yourself? Just imagine taking weekends fully unplugged, or better yet falling asleep at night with a clear mind. We have helped deep thinking and feeling professionals get results like this inside of resilient. My signature three month coaching program that gives you the tools to regain your confidence, master your emotions, and turn your sensitivity from a liability into an asset.

Resilient is packed with an actionable curriculum, live weekly coaching sessions, and a high level community, and so, so much more. Head to melodywilding.com/resilient to get on the VIP waitlist now and be the first to know when our enrollment opens for the next cohort. That’s melodywilding.com/resilient. Fantastic. Yeah, and like you were saying, I think one of the first chapters is called Never Win an Argument. Yeah. Which is, yeah, never win an argument.

Yeah. Which is, I mean, very counterintuitive. Everyone goes in wanting to win, but you’re saying, yeah, I think

I saw a book. I think I saw a book like a few years ago that was like, how to win every argument and I was like, oh my gosh,

this is where we’re going wrong.

yeah. Like, no, this is going about it.

the wrong way. So that’s why it was, you should never win an argument.

Yeah. But you do say that we should have conversational goals and values. Yes. Which was. Interesting. Like a concept I had never heard of or thought about that way before. So can you talk about what those two things are like?

What also what’s the difference between goals and values? And then I have a situation that I would love to kind of talk through applying that.

Yeah, so conversational goals are what is the point of what you’re wanting to say. Often we don’t know what we’re wanting to say until we’re already talking, so that’s why you hear the, I say all that to say our long story short.

So you have to talk out loud before you understand where you’re going. So a conversational goal is like the checker flag of this is where I want to end the conversation. This is my point. So when you have that difficult conversation, you know, how do you want this to end? Because too often you just expect it to go well and hope that it will, but you really don’t know how to get there, really what you want out of it.

So a goal is, just that a standard of where you want to to reach. Value is something intrinsic within yourself and what it’s personalized to every individual of what’s important to them in their life. Like a family is a value of mine. transparency, vulnerability, loyalty. Those are all big intrinsic things, integrity.

And so you use those values to help get you there. So if conversational goal is the finish line, conversational value is the road you take to get there.

So it would be weird if I said I was traveling and I’m getting on a plane, and I said, Melody, I’m traveling today. And he said, where are you going? I go, I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m just get on a, just get on a plane. Let’s see where it takes me. It’s probably not gonna go all that well if you’re not prepared.

And conversational values help align you to your goal. So if you need to have that difficult conversation. Often the value controls the decisions for you.

That’s the value there. That’s the power of it. I don’t have to worry about, oh man, what should I say? If my value is kindness, I have no decision to make. I know what I’m gonna say is gonna be kind. And that helps drive, make sure that any whatever happens, you’re still staying true to yourself. It’s that you have to say it with control, and that means control over yourself.

And so I’m just, I’m thinking of something some, someone might say to themselves, which like, let’s go to a specific situation, I hear a lot, okay, which is someone else I need to talk to, my coworker or my boss, who took credit for my at work. how would you coach someone or guide someone to set conversational goals for that or, and values that are not. Well, that person should apologize to me or that push person should go correct the record and give me, what I want. ’cause often I think where people get tripped up is their goal is about trying to get a change from the other person. Does that make sense?

It does.

Yeah.

you know, if I would say that also depends on, is this a supervisor that’s done this before continues to do this? It’s their first time? Did they do a, you think they did it by accident? So it’s gonna depend on that context. It also depends on what you need. And sometimes they just, I just need an apology. I need an acknowledgement from you. Or I want you to communicate that so and so that I was one that was part of this.

So let’s say that your goal was. I need you to also communicate to this team that I was part of this that’s gonna matter to me.

Let’s say your value is transparency. Your, value is trust. And so maybe you go into that conversation and you tell them, I’m gonna tell you this because I really value transparency and communication, and so I’m gonna be transparent with you. It upset me. When blah, blah, blah, and I’d love for you to be able to, or I need you to, give credit to, or communicate to. And so when you can often lead with, I’m gonna tell you this because "that value" is important to me.

It kind of tweaks the room and to them to go, oh, I understand that’s, this is where you’re, this is where you’re coming from.

In, a sense. And so that drives a lot of how you behave. And it also can do the same with the other person. So let’s say if I could also begin with, I’m gonna tell you this because I know that transparency is important to you.

So let’s say you’re that, that supervisor Melody, and you just took credit for something that I did.

If I said, melody, I’m gonna tell you this ’cause I know transparency is important to you. I was disappointed that you shared the project lead and I was not mentioned. And then you lead with that conversation and see where it goes.

Because but when you claim that value onto them and to yourself, it’s, it’s always gonna bring it to the forefront.

And in an odd way, it, calls them up to this stage. If I were to say, melody, I know that transparency is important to you. You’re gonna think, yes, it is. Transparency is important to me. And so you kind of take on that value yourself and, begin to lead with it.

Yeah. You get a little bit of their buy-in to move forward with the conversation rather than them feeling like it’s thrust upon them.

Yeah,

Exactly. And, it almost kind of becomes a mutual idea.

Yeah.

you were talking about control, like managing yourself, right? And so what are some of your favorite tips or, strategies from the book around managing your own emotions in a heated conversation? ‘Cause that’s, often the biggest hurdle for people to get over. Yeah.

Breath. That’s just, I find that, when I, what I tell my clients and what I practice myself is let your breath be the first word. So often if I’m getting something that I can know is gonna get defensive, I let my breath be the first word that I take. and so it’s the first word that I say, and that helps me.

Not only clear my mind, but keep that fight or flight down. It keeps my ignition mode from starting up. It keeps me nice and calm. I also like to have these little things that I call small talks, which for me, I use a lot is, "put it down Jefferson." when somebody tells you something, one way to keep yourself from getting defensive is just to imagine what they just said.

Just fell to the ground and you get to decide whether you’re gonna pick it back up or not. And often, it’s very tempting for us to pick things up and go, me, what about you? Instead, I just use a small talk, which is I, that allows me to take a little breath and tell myself, just put it down, Jefferson. Just put it down.

And that is a, just a nice little mental shift of deciding nobody can make me feel anything. It’s me attaching it, deciding what they’ve done, and to put that on myself. So, often when I say, "put it down" and using small talks, it helps me regulate myself.

Yeah. Well, and what I love about that is the third person self-talk.

’cause what, yeah. What we know is like when you say Jefferson or Melody, when you’re talking to yourself, it’s like it provides that psychological distance, like you were saying, to see things a little more objectively.

Yes, absolutely. It helps you have a little bit of detachment from what Jeff, this guy Jefferson’s doing versus what I’m doing.

And it helps, you kind of take this third person point of view of what are you doing in this moment?

And just going back to, you were also, I think the second rule was around. So it was, say it with control. Say it with confidence.

Confidence, right? Yeah.

And so let’s just talk about that one a little.

Yeah. how do you sound, or be more assertive, especially at work without offending people or stepping on toes? Because to your point you mentioned earlier, well it does make a difference if we’re talking to a peer or your supervisor at work. There are these, inherent expectations and power dynamics happening.

So how do you sound and be assertive when all of that’s happening in the background?

Yeah, it’s, using your assertive voice is something that anybody can learn. And I do wanna make the distinction. There’s a difference between just casual conversation and and you need to have that assertive voice in a professional setting.

Assertive voice is really all about removing the excessive apologies. So if you wanna sound assertive, you’re not gonna begin your statement with, "Hey, I’m sorry, but I just have to say" I. Like all of that. You just need to clear that out. excessive apologies when you say, I’m sorry to everything. "Hey, I’m so sorry just now."

"Just so sorry. Just now seeing this. So sorry. I’m just now getting back to you." It’s like, well, you’re, apologizing for having priorities. You’re apologizing for being busy. Those are things that you’ve made a mistake on. Those are things you’re doing the right thing on, and you can fix that by just using words of gratitude.

Thank you for your patience. Thank you for allowing the time to, to think about this. Thank you for letting me respond to this. And it’s, it’s, a different tweak and all of a sudden you’re thanking them for their patience and they’re thinking, I, am patient. You know, so it, it works to your advantage when you can cut out the, every time you undersell your words of, "Hey, I hate to bother. You have five minutes."

And all you’ve done is just communicate that what you’re gonna say is, gonna bother them. Or if you say, you know, this might be a dumb question. Of course, when you do those kind of things, you have to have this little mini conversation in between of like, Hey, I have to bother you. Oh, you’re not bothering me. Oh, I’m not bothering you are sure. Are you sure I’m not bothering you? And it’s like this unnecessary little jump that you’re having to do for no, for really no reason. Or if you say something like, Hey, I could be wrong. But whenever somebody starts that. They never think that they’re wrong.

Nobody says that thinking that they’re wrong. they absolutely think that they’re right. Just not want to come across too strongly. Part of that assertive voice is leading with I instead of you, instead of getting somebody defensive and just finding ways that you can assert your needs. So when you say like, going to do this, I need this leading with, I is always gonna sit you on the right, foot.

I love the swapping apology for gratitude. ’cause it’s don’t, throw yourself under the bus. Yeah. And yeah, and like you were saying, it also shapes how people then respond to you. If you are undermining yourself, they’re not going to treat you with as much authority or respect maybe. Yeah.

yeah, absolutely.

If you’re sharing your idea at the meeting, you know, across the table and you have to have this. This painful introduction of, okay, so I have a thought here and I could, totally be wrong, but tell me if this doesn’t make sense. So, you know, you know how there’s, and it’s this like eight seconds of just downgrading yourself to where people will go, I’m not gonna listen to this.

They don’t even believe in it. So you have to step out in front of that.

Wow. That’s great. Okay. And sort of related to this is. Disagreeing. Disagreeing with people at work. You said that, you said nobody, nobody says the, I may be wrong, but they think they’re right. Yeah. So how do you disagree with someone at work, especially when there’s someone who outranks you?

So your boss’s boss. That’s, hard.

Yeah. Oh, it is. the biggest thing is when you say, I disagree. It’s like a challenge.

It’s like a throwing down your dueling glove and be like, I challenge you. And it can be a threat to the other person. It triggers them, like anytime there’s some type of disagreement between it, because they want you to agree with them, but when you come at it from a different angle, you just tweak the language a little bit.

So instead of I disagree, it’s, I see things differently. I use that one all the time. And I think I see things differently. It’s just simply sharing of, I see a different perspective of the same problem that you have. It’s not, I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying I see things differently.

It’s much smoother. It doesn’t trigger anything. You can also use, I take a different approach. I take a different approach. It’s like, Hey, we both have the same goal. We both have the same mission, we just have a different approach to get there. And so then it’s a discussion of what’s the better approach.

I also like, I lean differently. I lean differently. It’s, the reason I like using that is just because "lean," doesn’t say I’m disagreeing with you. It just says I’m slightly off. And it’s a way of just communicating. I have a different idea. Without challenging you, without saying that you’re wrong, without doubting you in some way. And it opens up more dialogue rather than closes it.

Because if you go, I disagree, then it becomes a, they don’t, they’re not listening to you. They’re starting to drum up all the reasons why their approach is better than yours, no matter what you say.

But if you go, well, I lean a little differently, then they stay open. Then, they stay open and they wanna listen to it.

And it’s a much open, much more open dialogue.

And I would also, when I hear you say, I lean differently, it also, like you said, it has more openness, but also to me it suggests there’s a little more, like you are more willing to maybe be persuaded versus Yes. Versus you being really entrenched in your side.

And so I’m not even gonna bother, whereas I may be a little more willing to engage in the conversation if you’re like, okay, maybe I’m a little bit this direction. I’m more likely to, to have a civil conversation. Yeah,

Absolutely. And it’s just easier to communicate non-verbally. Like if I were to say, even if I was happy, I’d say I disagree. The other person still, it doesn’t make it any better.

It’s

not easier for them to swallow, but it, but if you were to go, I, you know what? I lean a little differently, then they stay curious of like, okay, let’s, let’s hear it. versus I disagree, which is just an immediate shutoff.

Here’s a harsh truth. That whole I don’t do office politics, belief. It’s not noble, it’s naive and it’s costing you opportunities, money and peace of mind. Every workplace decision happens within a web of relationships, priorities, and unspoken rules. And in my new book, Managing Up How to Get What You Need From the People in Charge, you’ll discover how to navigate these dynamics without losing yourself. Get your copy now at managingup.com. That’s really useful.

Those are super useful phrases for people. And, you were saying, you know, casual conversations are different than. You know, the more difficult ones. So I, I do wanna talk about the difficult ones. ‘Cause yeah, more than ever people, have to deliver bad news. Like a project got off track, right? Or is it gonna be delivered in time or someone’s leaving, whatever. So how, what tips do you have for navigating some of those really loaded conversations where you have to deliver bad news?

Yeah, well in the, you know, say it to connect. That’s that connection. Part of this we talk about, being able to have both understanding and acknowledgement in the difficult conversation. And often that means you need to be very direct. Like there is kindness in being direct. ’cause if you and I have to have a difficult conversation, and let’s say I come into your office, Melody, and then you start with, Hey Jefferson, so how are you?

how are things? how’s the family? Good. And the whole time I’m thinking, we’re. I’m gonna engage in the small talk with you, but the whole time I’m thinking, where do you, where are you going with this?

And then Melody says, so listen, okay. Jefferson, and all of a sudden the shift is, has been made.

I hear the so listen, and that’s just a different gear that’s just been switched, you know? Okay. Everything you just said. Complete fluff. Didn’t matter. Now we have this real conversation and even then I’m still might be thinking, where are you going? Where are you going with this? It’s like a text. You know, we need to talk.

where are you going? I just, I’m automatically gonna think the worst. So if you need to handle bad, sensitive, bad news, sensitive discussions. I like to lead with labeling the conversation. Meaning if I have to deliver bad news to you, I might say, this is gonna be hard to talk about, or this isn’t going to be fun to discuss.

For me, my team, if they have to tell me bad news, they say, you’re not gonna like this. That’s what I, that’s what I make them lead with. So I might pick up the phone and Lauren might say, you’re not gonna like this. I go, okay. But the thing is, the good is about that, is that it prepares me. It, I get to ready myself emotionally and go, okay, lay it on me.

Let’s hear it. You know, I’m ready for it. And then when she tells me, I go, oh, that’s not nearly as bad as I, I thought it would. So often you just need to prepare them for those emotions. So instead of leading with the fluff of, Hey, how are you? How are things, you know? Okay, so listen and going into it, it’s much easier to just start with, I have bad news.

Take two seconds, let them engage themself and then you need to tell them I need to let you go. And then they’re like, okay. And now you get to, now you get to talk. Now you get to see what you have to say, but you don’t lead with that at the end. Or what’s worse is when you go, look, We’ve loved, Melody as we’ve loved having you, you’ve been such an important member of the team, and the whole time you’re just spinning an anxiety of like, am I being let go?

Am I being demoted? What’s happening here? So bad news just lead with that very direct label of what it’s going to be. It can be as simple as this is gonna be a difficult conversation. Simple as that.

That’s great. That’s great.

Yeah.

how do you handle someone else’s negative response? If someone else starts getting angry, upset, starts blaming you, is there any way or any quick tips to manage that sort of negative reactions from other people?

Well, as long as it’s done respectfully, you know, if they start yelling at you, I gotta cut that out. and that’s instead of a don’t yell at me, stop yelling at me. It’s, I don’t respond to that volume. I mean that, because that becomes a me thing. Now. That’s part of my manual, my instruction manual.

You talk to me, I don’t respond to that volume. Once we’re at a conversational level, then that negative reaction is, comes from something. That it goes to that, really this main tenant that I follow myself is come with something to learn, not something to prove. So instead of me forcing a no, I didn’t know you’re wrong, just because they’re angry, that’s a recipe for disaster.

Instead, I need to come at it as something to learn. So I’m going to try to hear the person that’s really speaking, and I might even tell them, tell me more. Okay, tell me more. I’m getting then to explain and explain. Like, you’re not gonna be able to shut off negative emotions like a faucet, and that comes from somewhere.

The, key, the people that are emotionally intelligent are the ones that are patient enough to absorb that emotion.

Intelligent people can express their own anger and they can handle the anger of other people because you understand that anger is just a feeling. Just like anything else, if you can take people’s happiness. You should be able to take people’s anger. You just have to listen for the right words.

And so there’s a difference between them feeling angry and saying things that are hurtful, saying things that are hurtful, that’s a little bit different. You need to have a strategies for that like, like we talk about.

But the idea of how do you deal with those negative actions or negative reactions, you let them happen. you can’t stifle those. You just need to get them out. It’s this idea of you can’t, I can’t pour water into a glass that’s already full. I, need to let ’em pour it all out. Let them get it out before they’re gonna listen to anything that I say.

Oh, that’s so good. That’s so good. It’s almost like a fire. You let it extinguish itself, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jefferson, is there anything from the book that you wanna talk about that I didn’t ask you specifically knowing that this is like a workplace leadership, I. Audience. I think you hit it all.

I’m just so glad that you liked the book.

Oh, I loved it. I absolutely, I was so, I mean, that, it really means a lot to me. So I’m, very, excited.

I mean,

very excited about that.

Yeah. It, is fantastic. I mean, you’re gonna, did you do the little illustrations?

No, I, well, I, mocked up most of them.

Yeah. I had a, guy, his last name is Ozolins. First name is Janis, and I found him on Instagram way before I ever wrote a book. And I just always liked his stuff, because I value. I can appreciate people are able to synthesize ideas, me being one of ’em. And so I always this stuff. And then when they, when I knew I was gonna write a book, I was like, I wonder if he would do my illustrations. And I was so pumped when I found out that, he would, so I was very, excited about those. But he and I got to, work together and. We, I would say, let’s tweak this or try this. And he was really cool about it. Impatient and, yeah, it was, it was, awesome.

The biggest takeaway for the book for, you know, any of your readers

Might be that this is a book that gives you the tools to separate yourself, separate yourself from the regular mundane people who don’t know how to communicate, whether it’s, you need just to spruce up on skills of, maybe it’s a leadership, you’re in a leadership position, because often people, it’s, they wait until they’re in a management position or leadership position before they go, oh, communication’s actually really important here.

I’m not as skilled at it as I thought. And so these are the tools that they can use. Right away. I mean, it’s gonna tweak how they read every single email. They’re gonna get an email and then, or they’re gonna be in a meeting and somebody’s gonna say, does that make sense? That every single thing and they’re, it’s gonna drive them crazy.

Like little bitty things that they’re gonna start noticing in their conversations that they can go, oh, if they only tweak that, it would sound just a little bit more confident.

Yeah. And I mean, all the more important, ’cause work is becoming more emotional and more stressful. Yes. And you know, requires being able to handle other people and different personalities and different dynamics. Oh, yeah. And AI can’t do that for you, so

No, it can’t. I would say that, yeah, that the AI can’t have difficult conversations for you. Yeah. And I think, where the world is right now, socially, there’s a lot of difficult conversations that need to be had and that are coming. And so they need to be prepared for it best, they can. And this book lays out those tools.

Yeah. And it, really is fantastic. Congratulations again. I mean, thank you very much. It’s gonna be a huge hit. So brace yourself.

Thank you. You made my day. You really made my day. I was, I’m serious.

Thank you. Thank you.

yeah. Congratulations and it, it’s gonna be huge. So, thank you for taking the time now. Yeah, of course. Glad I got you.

it comes out March 18th, right?

yes. March 18th.

Yes.

But my, one of my buddies was like, well, once it comes out, it’s not like you’re done with it. Like you’re still gonna have to keep talking about it. It’s like, dang, you’re right.

Well, thank you. Yeah, it was a, it was truly a pleasure to meet you.

thank you again. Good luck. Take care of yourself in between all of this and, we’ll talk soon.

Thanks for tuning in to today’s episode of psychology at work. If you enjoyed the show, I’d be so grateful if you could take just a minute to rate and review wherever you are listening. It’s how we reach more professionals just like you. And if you’d like to see even more content on how to feel more self assured, grounded, and in control of your emotions and reactions at work, follow me on LinkedIn or head to the links in the show notes.