Melody Wilding:
How do you become fully confident and in control of your emotions and experience at work? It’s by mastering your own psychology and that of others. On this show, we decode the science of success, exploring how to get out of your own way and advance your career to new levels without becoming someone you’re not. I’m Melody Wilding, best selling author, human behavior professor, and award winning executive coach. Get ready, and let’s put psychology to work for you. In today’s corporate world, confidence is not something that is just a nice to have. It is a career defining asset. And today, we are diving into the confidence gap and, more importantly, how to close it. So I am thrilled to welcome Kelli Thompson.

Melody Wilding:
She is an executive coach, and she’s author of Closing the Confidence Gap, boost your peace, your potential, and your paycheck. We all want more of that. And Kelli is on a mission to advance women to the rooms where the decisions are being made, and she has graciously agreed to join us here to share some of her insights about how to improve your presence, beat burnout, make a bigger impact at work. So, Kelli, welcome. I am so happy to have you here.

Kelli Thompson:
Yeah. I’m excited to chat with you. This is gonna be fun.

Melody Wilding:
Yeah. Amazing. So when I was reading your book, the introduction really spoke to me because you talk a lot about being a lifelong box checker. And I was wondering if you could talk more about the realization you had about that, how that was holding you back, how it was shaping your, your career path. And I also wanna talk about a concept you have of poop soup. So we’ll get into that in a second, but, go ahead and let let’s start with that.

Kelli Thompson:
Yeah. Sounds good. So, you know, I grew up, and I went to, Catholic school. And I don’t know if that’s where I learned to, like, follow rules because there was, you know, I had I had to wear a dress code. Right? I had to wear a plaid skirt, and it had to be of certain length and all those sorts of things. And I think I just grew up from a really young age with even parents who said, okay. You should get married, and you should get married young, and you should have kids young because, see, then you’re gonna have a lot of energy for those kids. And then you’re gonna, like, you know, be an empty nester at age 42, which I was.

Kelli Thompson:
And you should go to college, and you should definitely get a master’s degree because, you know, everybody in our family gets master’s degrees, and that’s just things that you do. You should work at a nice stable institution like a bank, you know, someplace that’s not gonna go under. And there was just I remember all these rules. And, of course, I think as young people, we have a lot of authority bias with our parents. We think to ourselves, yeah, that sound that sounds great. That sounds good. That’s all we know. And so I did all those things.

Kelli Thompson:
I went to college. I got into finance and banking, and I started to climb the corporate ladder. And I would also get very well meaning advice even from my leaders to say, Hey, this job’s open. You should consider applying for that. You should go work in this person’s team. I think this would be the right next career step for you. And thinking to myself, well, you know, these people seem happy and successful, so they must know what they’re talking about. Yeah.

Kelli Thompson:
Like, I would say yes. And I think there’s probably something in all of us that really enjoys that feeling of being wanted. Like, oh, they want me. Like, and they’re gonna pay me more money, you know, and all those sorts of things. So I just said yes to those things. And it was like all of those yeses really started to, you know, catch up to my I remember saying yes to the the first guy who asked me to marry him. And I this all kind of came crashing down when I say I kind of had, like, this kitchen table moment where I had left the job at the bank that I thought I was gonna be at forever because I really had found out that I was miserable and that organization was not really in alignment with my values and the way I like to work. I had been divorced at 30.

Kelli Thompson:
I had gotten into another relationship with another individual, and we were engaged. We were 3 months from the wedding, and I had just called it off. The company that I went to go work for had just been acquired by a publicly traded company, and I found out that my job was gonna be absorbed. It’s the nice word they use.

Melody Wilding:
Mhmm.

Kelli Thompson:
And so I was literally sitting at my kitchen table having a meltdown thinking to myself, like, one, my picker is evidently broken because I can’t choose good relationships. But number 2, like, what all of I I did everything right. Like, I checked all these boxes. Like, why am I not at this place that that feels good? And so when you ask about, like, poop soup, I really just felt like I was in that moment where all of my career choices had led me to a certain path, but they weren’t making me totally happy. Mhmm. Obviously, my relationship choices weren’t great. And so I I talk about this concept of poop soup because it comes from the butterfly. So a caterpillar, like, doesn’t just, like, go into the cocoon and, like, slap itself on some wings and fly out.

Kelli Thompson:
It’s not that easy. Caterpillar goes into a cocoon, fully dies, and turns into this brown soupy substance. And it just sits there until the you know, obviously, the cocoon is forming, and then it, like, struggles on its way out. But that whole poop soup is like that liminal space. It’s that transition time where the past is gone. We can’t go back. We can’t wreak caterpillar. But the future isn’t here yet.

Kelli Thompson:
We don’t know what things are gonna be like when we get our wings and we fly out. So it literally just feels like poop soup. And every time I say that, people are like, oh, I totally know what poop soup feels like. It just feels gross. You don’t know which way is up. You don’t know what the right thing is to do. All you literally wanna do is cocoon on the couch and just do nothing. And that was really that state that I was in.

Kelli Thompson:
And I know I think a lot of people find themselves in when they get to this point that maybe they have been climbing the ladder of success, and it was leaning against the wrong building. Or they find themselves in the wrong relationships, or something major has changed in their life. It’s really just naming that experience of transition that just feels terrible.

Melody Wilding:
I am one of those people who fully identifies with the poop soup. It’s it it is when you put it that way, when you’re in it, it feels very hopeless because you feel so adrift. You feel so directionless. But, I find those sort of analogies that come from nature just so affirming because there is another side to it. And I would love to hear from you. So when you were in that or when you’ve gone through other poop soup phases in your life, how do you sit with that uncertainty and be okay with the ambiguity of it? Because as high achievers, I think, maybe you will agree with this, we’re we always want the next thing to do. We always want the next box to check. And it can feel frustrating and demoralizing and just really disorienting to not have that.

Melody Wilding:
So how did you have patience with yourself? How did you navigate through that to get to the other side?

Kelli Thompson:
Mhmm. Really difficultly. Lots of tears. No, but really though. I remember being in that time. My daughter was probably around age 10 or 11 then. And so I remember during that time really going back to, like, the bare minimums. Like, what do I really need? Okay.

Kelli Thompson:
I need to show up. I need to go to my job that is in transition. I need to do the best I can at that job in transition because there was a chance that I would stay on with the acquiring company, which I did. But I I needed to to show up well. Right? I needed to make sure she was cared for, and I need to make sure that I had the basic things. And so what did I do? I cried. I threw myself pity parties. Like, I I think sometimes we don’t talk about this enough, but I know that you agree with me because I know the things you talk about.

Kelli Thompson:
I literally had to allow myself to process all the terrible crappy emotions and feel the emotions. You know, an interesting fact is that if you go in and you try to pull out a forming caterpillar out of the cocoon before it’s fully ready and it doesn’t do it on its own, it’ll die. And I think sometimes we do that. We wanna, like, ease our pain through substances, shopping, maybe hopping into the next relationship because it gives us a high leaving our difficult situation. So how did I get through it? Honestly, just sitting with and dealing with all of my horrible emotions because I kind of had this moment. I’m like, If I got myself into this mess, like I can get myself out of this mess. And I had to do a really painful and very quite painful accounting of all of the choices that I had made, all of the assumptions that I believed about myself and others, and just kind of just a lot of my stories that I had told myself. All of those things that led me to the place that I am right now.

Kelli Thompson:
And that took a lot of journaling, a lot of reflection. But the one place that I did start was when I kind of started to realize, Oh, I keep ending up in these places because I keep believing this. I keep making this choice. I keep really doubting myself and my worth. And that’s why I’m ending up in these relationships. So where I started and where I have a lot of folks start when they’re in this place because it feels terrible is I didn’t know what I wanted. I had no idea what my future life was gonna look like. But you know what I did know? I knew what I didn’t want.

Kelli Thompson:
So I started making a list of all the things like I don’t want that. I know I don’t want that. I know I don’t want that. I know I don’t want that. And so, like, I had that and that really helped me actually start to define my values and those things that I stood for. And so when I kind of had that codified, then I can run everything through these filter choices and be like, oh, nope. That’s if I do that, that’s gonna lead to more of what I don’t want. And that is, like, the first place I started to just kind of take these small itty bitty steps kind of out of that whole poop suit phase.

Melody Wilding:
Yeah. And, you know, both of us tend to work with a lot of women in their careers, women leaders, women executives. And I would love to hear if you see this in your work that for so many of us, we don’t have that muscle of literally knowing what we want because we’ve been following the shoulds, the have tos, the you need to do this, that we’ve never even stopped to question. Wait. What are my preferences? Where do I work best? What are my needs in this? What are my values that I can filter my decisions through? And so many of us certainly I have a very similar story to yours where we unfortunately have to come to that rock bottom. But I think what you’re saying is that’s something someone can do today is to say, alright. Even if you don’t know what you quite want, yikes, that might be fuzzy. The way to get there is through what don’t you want and then process of elimination or comparison to that to gradually keep refining that vision.

Melody Wilding:
Because I think as well as high achievers, we’re like, I have to know what it is today so I can go after it with clarity. Mhmm. And sometimes you just don’t. Sometimes it’s just a process of iteration and evolution and experimenting, trying some things that doesn’t work. You get more information. You move forward with that.

Kelli Thompson:
Mhmm. Exactly. Yeah. Well, and in that moment so this was all happening in 20 16, and so this was in the musical Hamilton had come on to the scene. And I remember seeing this meme on social media, and it’s Alexander Hamilton to Aaron Burr. And he says, if you don’t know what you stand for, what will you fall for? And I was like, oh my god. I don’t even know what I stand for. So, where I always tell to answer kind of your question that was embedded in there was where I really tell women to start when they don’t know what they want is, start with knowing what you stand for.

Kelli Thompson:
And that’s how I name values. Because I think sometimes when when people say, hey, define your values, they roll their eyes and like, oh, because we think of values as like the marketing language on like a company website. But I define values and I know we’re aligned in this is what are these things that we stand for? What makes my life meaningful? When other people are talking about me, what words do I hope that people use when they talk about me? When I’m 80 years old looking back on my, you know, my life and my retirement, what do I want to say my life has stood for? What qualities were present when I made difficult decisions? What qualities are present in the people I surrounded myself with? And we can get really clear on that. It can help us start to say, okay, well, is this job that I’m currently in? Is this organization I’m working for even aligned with my values? And that was the first clue for me when I left the bank after 12 years was I couldn’t figure out why I kept feeling so resentful at work. Well, one of the things I figured out was I led learning and development teams, and the organization didn’t have a learning and development budget because they didn’t value it. They said it, but I will often tell folks you often know what an organization values by where they spend their money. Mhmm. Oh, you know what all of us value by where we spend our money.

Kelli Thompson:
I mean, let’s be clear. You should see my bookshelf. You know I manage learning or I value learning. And so, you know, that can be a huge clue to say, is it even a values match? And then you had another question about, you know, maybe you aren’t at rock bottom, but you can start with this somewhere where I tell folks to start as I want you to pick an area of your life in which you feel resentment. Maybe you’ve said yes to something. Maybe you’re signing up for like a school event for your kid and you’re like, oh, maybe you got voluntold to be put on a committee at work. Where are you feeling resentment? That could be a clue that something is out of alignment with your values. It can also be a clue that perhaps that’s not also in alignment with your best talents.

Melody Wilding:
Do you have an example of how for you, you were able to hone in on what one of your values is and how that has how you’ve made decisions with that or use that as a filter?

Kelli Thompson:
Mhmm. Absolutely. Okay. Perfect example, running my business. So I came up with my 5 values, out of my poop suit phase. They are love, respect, family, creativity, and learning. And so one of the decisions that I made actually to go out on my own was I was working actually for another leadership development consultant, author, etcetera. And, I traveled a ton because I was traveling all over the country teaching her leadership development philosophy.

Kelli Thompson:
And I just felt so much resentment every time I got on a plane, every time I was laid over in O’Hare. I mean and I’m like, what is this? And, like, one of the things that I was like, oh, this is violating my value of family. Like, I’m sitting in this airport deeply missing my family. I just been remarried. My daughter was in middle school, so she was starting to, like, get into things. You know? And I’m like, this role is no longer in alignment with my values of family. You know, even in my own business today, when I think about, okay, love, respect, family, creativity, and learning, there’s organizations that want to work with me. And maybe they want me to come in and, maybe do something a little bit different than what I normally talk about.

Kelli Thompson:
And then when we get down to it, they just don’t value or have a strategy or care about having, like, equity in leadership. Well, that that, like, violates my value of respect because respect means, like, we are treating others equally. We’re being inclusive. We’re being respectful of everybody being in the leadership team. And so I’ve had to turn down some of those opportunities. And for anyone who is listening that runs their own business, saying no to money when you run your own business is very quite very quite hard. You don’t have a magic company paying you every 2 weeks. And so those are just ways that I filter in.

Kelli Thompson:
I also know too in my business with the value of learning or creativity, I have to have creative freedom. So when I chose my book publisher, one of my nonnegotiables was I had to have creative book freedom on certain things, and that’s how I chose the publisher that I chose. So just little things like that.

Melody Wilding:
Yeah. Absolutely. It and it it turned out beautifully. By the way, you did a great job. And I always I always like to ask myself the question of, does this decision get me closer to or further away from my values? And it’s like, if if closer, good. Proceed. If not, need to reevaluate. Just a helpful checkpoint for yourself to understand why.

Melody Wilding:
Why am I doing something? And if you wanna make a concession, great. But at least you’re doing that consciously. Hey. I wanna make sure you know about a powerful free resource where you can steal my favorite proven scripts to say no and set limits at work without being a jerk or losing your job. Imagine having the perfect words at your fingertips to confidently refuse extra work, decline useless meetings, push back on unrealistic deadlines, and more. To grab your copy, head over to melodywilding.com/sayno. That’s melodywilding.com/sayno or check out the link in the show notes.

Kelli Thompson:
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And sometimes, yeah, you do have to because you have values conflicts. But you’re like, I I love that visual too. And we we we come from the same place of okay. But ultimately, like, what is moving me in the direction that I want to go? Sometimes I might have to stall a bit while I accommodate this thing, but, ultimately, like, it’s just not moving me back. And that was just the big thing was, like, in the past, I think, you know, really defining those things you stand for.

Kelli Thompson:
If anything, you now know what doesn’t move you away from.

Melody Wilding:
Mhmm.

Kelli Thompson:
Maybe you sit for a minute, but at least you’re not moving away from.

Melody Wilding:
Yeah. Yeah. And speaking of as we try to move towards what we do want for ourselves in our careers and and lives, you have this concept of the but first coming up. So talk to us about that. What is the but first? How does it come up? How does it get in our way?

Kelli Thompson:
Yeah. Well, anybody who’s been around a 4 year old knows exactly what this is. So when my daughter was about 4, like, I always joke, she developed this condition called the but first. And it would happen, like, every time I asked her to do something that she was uncomfortable with or didn’t wanna do. And so, like, for instance, Hailey, we need to clean your room. Oh, mom. But first, I need a slice of cheese. I mean, like, coming up with just totally, like, random stuff.

Kelli Thompson:
Right? Mom, I need a drink. Mom, I need a snack. Are you putting socks? I mean, but first, but first, but first, but first. You know? And it always escalates in your bedtime. Okay. It’s time to go to bed. Oh, mom. But first, I need to clean my room, you know, which is all of a sudden a priority.

Kelli Thompson:
But I always tell my audiences, we never really grow out of the butt first. They just get more sophisticated. And we see it come up when we think about, oh, I want to apply for this job. You know what? But first I think I need to read I better go read that trust yourself book from Melody before I apply because I need to work on my overthinking. You know? Or, you know, but, you know, I wanna go talk to my manager, but first, I need to make sure that I have all my stuff together. I wanna raise my hand and speak up in a meeting, But first, I need to make sure and do my research. I don’t sound silly. I want to start my side hustle.

Kelli Thompson:
But first, I need to work at this job a little longer. But first, but first, but first, but first. And all they are is just a sophisticated way of stalling because our ego just hates to be uncomfortable. It hates ambiguity. You know, people always say, well, you know, just coming from my own experience, and I’ve lived this. People will be like, well, why don’t people stay in abusive relationships? You know, why don’t they leave? Same thing with toxic jobs. Well, you know what? Because at least it’s certain. I know what I’m gonna get.

Kelli Thompson:
What if I leave? You know, and it’s worse than where I am right now because our ego hates ambiguity so bad that oftentimes people will only change when the pain of their current circumstances starts to far outweigh the uncertainty they have of the future. So we get stuck in, but first, but first, but first, but first. And I see folks do that to stall their career so much. Mhmm.

Melody Wilding:
I still do. I I particularly like, we both work with very thoughtful people, and there’s a temptation to but first, I need to do more research. But first, I need to do more self reflection because that’s what’s going to help me. And it’s Mhmm. No. Actually, you can you’re digging yourself further into a spiral there where you’re just reflecting and self analyzing to no end instead of taking actual action. So how do you get yourself out of that and define what is I guess, how do you separate the difference between what is, like, reasonable needed preparation from where you’re making excuses to protect yourself?

Kelli Thompson:
Yeah. Well, one of my favorite tactics is, procrasta learning. But first, I need to get a certification or take a course in that. Yeah. Or procrasta branding. Before I can tell anybody and this happens in corporate. I did it in corporate. Before I can tell anybody, I need to make a little web page first.

Kelli Thompson:
Right? I need to write up some marketing language first. You know, procrasti perfecting before I can take this to the meeting. It has to be perfect. I see that in my clients all the time. They think they’re taking action, but they’re not. So one of the things that I really encourage folks to do. Okay. You know what? Let’s not be silly.

Kelli Thompson:
There is time for reflection, planning. Perhaps there does need to be some education. I totally get that. But I think the question that I typically ask folks and I ask myself, what planning or preparation have you already done to the point you’re now telling me? And usually, it’s like, well, I’ve thought about it for a year, you know, or I’ve thought about it for 30 days. I’m like, okay, so we got that box checked. So usually, like, I’m like, if folks need evidence, I’m like, okay. Let’s just make a list of evidence of some preparation and some meditation. We’ve already done this topic.

Kelli Thompson:
And typically, what happens is we can get a nice little list. So the second thing that I love to tell folks is we need to get into action as quickly as possible. And I define action as, are you talking to somebody about this? Like, have you told somebody that you are going to start a podcast and it’s going to launch on x date? Have you told somebody in your organization that you are interested in that promotion? Like that act of sharing and telling and making it external is a great way to put things into action. Because here’s the thing. People aren’t thinking of you. Like, they don’t know what you’re working on. They’re busy with their own stuff. So if we don’t tell people that you like, the universe can’t conspire to help us.

Kelli Thompson:
Right? It can’t put our name into action. And so where I tell folks to kind of get out of the butt first is 1, let’s acknowledge what we’ve already done. 2, let’s just acknowledge that the discomfort is totally present. It will be. But what is that smallest, bravest next step that you can take that requires you to externalize this with someone, not your friend, but externalize this with someone. And how can you do that while also feeling doubt? I think the misnomer and I read about this a lot in my book. This is one of my core concepts is like, I think a lot of times people think that they have to feel confident before they do a thing. But it’s the actions of confidence that come first and the feelings that come second.

Kelli Thompson:
So confidence is actually a side effect of taking action. So if you’re stretching your comfort zone, you will not feel confident when you do it. You will feel confident after you do it. So you have to actually get comfortable doing things while also. So that’s my whole thought is we need to change the but firsts to while also. I can speak up while also feeling nervous. I can apply for this job on the posting board while also feeling a little impostory. Right? I can, you know, start building my side business while also feeling doubtful if it’s going to work.

Kelli Thompson:
But first, well also.

Melody Wilding:
That is a game changer. I at first, I’m gonna use that because I I definitely get into the but first, but I love the while also. It’s kind of the both and mindset versus black and white thinking of either or. It’s these two things can coexist. And not making meaning out of the fact that I feel like an imposter or I feel like I might fail at this, don’t make that true. That is just a thought you have. It’s optional. It’s a possibility, but it it doesn’t preclude you from from moving forward.

Kelli Thompson:
Yeah.

Melody Wilding:
And I think that is so freeing. That’s gonna be such a huge shift for people to actually and simple simple to do to catch yourself when you hear yourself saying, but but I need to do this while also. Mhmm. And the

Kelli Thompson:
other thing too, I try to remind folks like, listen y’all. Like, let’s have a ton of compassion for ourselves because you cannot criticize your way into more confidence. I know we try. I try every day. Oh, Kelli, don’t think that. Don’t have the but first. But remember, and I know you’ll agree with me because of your profession, but doubt is a normal, healthy human emotion. It is normal and healthy.

Kelli Thompson:
And doubt has likely preceded some of your greatest accomplishments. Doubt, nervousness, imposter feelings have probably kept you humble and curious and connected with people because you maybe you sought one more data point. Maybe you just listened to someone a little bit longer. So remember like that that vulnerability that makes all your good creative moments doesn’t just go away when you’re acting on them. So of course, it’s going to be present. And like I joke with my clients. Like my husband and I watch Dateline and drink a margarita every Friday night. And there are people in this world who don’t feel doubt when they should, and I watch them on datelines.

Kelli Thompson:
There are people who could benefit from a little more doubt. So just remember, like, you actually don’t want an absence of doubt because you would make we would be having a separate conversation. So just remember, like, the big term is impostor syndrome and all this sort of stuff. But I think a lot of times, like, just our normal healthy everyday doubt gets relabeled as impostor syndrome. Yeah. It’s just it’s there. Have a ton of compassion for it and just that kind self talk of, you know what? Of course, I’m feeling doubtful. I’m about to make the biggest promotion of my life.

Kelli Thompson:
Of course, I feel nervous because I care. Because I care about doing good work. And that just feels so much kinder, and it’s like, I’m gonna do this while also feeling these feelings because I’m human.

Melody Wilding:
Yeah. And I love that that I I completely agree, and I love that you said imposter feelings earlier, which is important because, yes, imposter syndrome, very popular now. But I find people get so attached to that label, and then they sink deeper and deeper and deeper into it instead of realizing this is completely normal. This is going to pass. They they start reinforcing the narrative that I am an imposter, then they find more evidence that Mhmm. Look, I don’t know what I’m doing, and it becomes this negative spiral. So I love that point that let’s not put that Let’s not reinforce that narrative for ourselves because you’re you are actually setting yourself up for failure by doing that. Mhmm.

Kelli Thompson:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Melody Wilding:
So in your book, you have, I think, an entire chapter where you talk about helping people, helping women in particular, discover their talents at work. And this is this is a big topic for many reasons. I think even number 1, the word talent is uncomfortable, claiming that there are things we’re good at when, you know, especially as women were told told to be modest, tone things down, you know, don’t be too big for your britches. But going back to our earlier conversation of some people have been in such a reactive mode throughout their career and life, they don’t even know what their talents are, how to label them, how to articulate them. So let’s start with the first side of that, which is even owning that you do have value to offer. How do you work with women and leaders to coach them through that?

Kelli Thompson:
Yeah, absolutely. And that this really just stemmed from my own burnout. Like, I after being at the bank for 12 years, not only recognizing that it was this was not an alignment with my values, but I had something I call rust out, which is I would lose it was a type of burnout from, like, literally not using my talents. And I I think a lot of folks know that they’ve been here because you show up to work and you’re like, oh, I feel like I’m getting dumber every day at work. Right? Just the tasks are just like, why am I so tired when these tasks are so easy? Right? Like, that’s rust out. Right? We’re not using our best gifts. And so then what became really important to me was, okay. I’m gonna make a move from this.

Kelli Thompson:
Honestly, it was an amazing organization. It truly was, and it was why I stayed there for so long. So if I’m gonna take a risk and make a move, I need to be crystal stinking clear on what I want to be doing and how I want to be working because I am really tired of feeling kind of this rest out burnout. So the first thing I thought was I thought back over my career, and this is a question you can ask yourself is, like, over the course of my career, what work energized me the most? What exactly was I doing when I literally could not wait to get to work every day and start working on this thing? Or I’d be, you know, at home at night trying to watch my date line, and all I can think about is this project because it’s just so energizing. Not stressful, but, like, energizing. Right? Another question I had asked myself is, like, what am I just naturally pulled to? So I I thought back over the course of my career, and I’m like, when I would hear about strategic things or new things coming on in my organization, where was I like internally hoping? Oh, I hope they pick me. I hope they pick me. Right? Like, noticing where I was drawn to like a magnet.

Kelli Thompson:
Another question that I would often ask myself is like, honestly, where do I just geek out? Like, when at work have I just felt really geeky? And for some people, it’s like, when I get a pivot table going, I am geeky. And for other people, it’s like, when I’m standing in front of a room teaching, coaching, educating, you know, for other people, it it might be, you know, hey, when I’m landing a sale. K. So it’s not the same for anyone. So really start to think just very, very simply about, you know, where do I get the most energy? What makes me geek out? What are things, you know, that I’m naturally drawn to? And what just comes easy for me? You know, one of the things that I always knew that training and educating was kind of a genius zone of mine is it was just easy for me to learn a thing, construct it, teach it, stand up, and do it. Where other people just seemed to struggle. I’m like, my brain was like, boop boop boop boop. Yep.

Kelli Thompson:
And I want you to think about what is that for you that you’ve seen, gosh, other people seem to struggle with this. And it’s just so easy. So those are some questions that you can ask yourself to start to get some clues on what your talents might be. And an even simpler way you can do this is just to notice your energy. Okay? So maybe just take like the last 60 days at work, and I want you to do an energy audit. And I want you to think about the things that sucked your energy dry. Like, oh, I got wet on this project, and it was so detailed, and my energy was terrible. Right? Think about that.

Kelli Thompson:
And then maybe what are your energy stallers? Like, what sort of things just kind of are energetically neutral for you? These can be danger zones because you’re probably pretty good at them, And people like to pull you into them because you’re good at it, but they’re not really lighten you up. And I really want you to focus on your energy surges. What were you working on in the last 60 days where your energy was just on fire at work? That is probably a clue that that is, a genius zone for you, that that is one of your core talents. And so when I got really clear about what mine were, specifically, it was training, it was developing leadership development programs, you know, HR policies, practices, developing talent management program programs and overseeing those sorts of things and, like, coming into an organization and standing up something from scratch. Like, that stuff geeks me out. When I found jobs that had that, I was like, I know I need to apply for this. And so that just helps folks get, I think, really clear when they’re looking at jobs in the job board of, like, oh, this is my thing. This is not my thing.

Melody Wilding:
Yeah. And also gives you information. If you if you feel stuck in your role or you feel rushed out, can also be confirmation that maybe this role is no longer the right fit for me because nothing is an energy surger for me anymore. Instead of blaming yourself and shaming yourself like, I just gotta get my mojo back here. I think it can help you come to terms more so with the fact that maybe it’s time to move on and there’s a better fit for me.

Kelli Thompson:
It is. Yeah. And you talk about this too. And you’re you’re you’re gonna be the foremost expert on this here soon when your book comes out. But that’s also a clue that you should have a conversation with your leader to say, hey. You know what? Here are the things in the last year that you’ve delegated to me that I really enjoy. I feel super geeky. And we had got great results on these because my hunch is is when you feel super geeky, you do things really well.

Kelli Thompson:
Tell that to your manager. Managers are terrible guessers. They don’t know. You think they know, but trust me. They they’re worrying about their own stuff. Yeah. So that is a huge clue to just to have that managing up conversation with your leader to say, hey. I love these projects.

Kelli Thompson:
Where can I get more of these? And, hey. I don’t think that these are using my best talents. So is somebody else on our team better at these? And maybe I can take one of their things that they don’t like. And so it’s it’s can be a clue to leave the organization, and it can be a clue that it’s time to talk to my leader about, you know, the projects that I’m working on so that I can stay at this organization for the long term.

Melody Wilding:
Such a great point, and thank you for raising that too. Because, I I have also seen that some people are too quick to make a change, too quick to jump ship thinking that, well, things will be different somewhere else once I’m away from this boss or this coworker, this project. And then the same patterns follow them elsewhere. So to your point, doing this energy audit, you may discover, hey. Consistently, it’s dealing with this one team or this coworker. Maybe there is a way I can job craft or set boundaries with that so that it doesn’t drain my energy so much or have a conversation with my manager so that I’m doing more of what I enjoy, and that’s bringing them value and less of the draining stuff. So, yeah, it’s useful in so many ways.

Kelli Thompson:
Mhmm.

Melody Wilding:
I wanna build on this by transitioning a little bit to talk about executive presence. This is a bit of a tricky topic because, I think you also write this in your book, how executive presence is something that women are often told as a vague piece of feedback. Well, you you just need to have more presence.

Kelli Thompson:
Mhmm.

Melody Wilding:
Love to hear, overall, your thoughts on that, and then we can talk a little bit more about what does it actually mean to have presence?

Kelli Thompson:
Yeah, absolutely. So when I talk about executive presence, I like to just remind folks we need to go up 50,000 feet. Okay? Modern workplace was created by men for men at a time when men went to work and women stayed home. Remember that women could not have the ability to borrow money in their own name until 1974. So for maybe many of you listening, this is your mother. K. Your mother could not have her own credit card. Okay.

Kelli Thompson:
So just let that sink for a second. You’re not being able to go to Amazon and buy the books. Okay. Without your husband’s credit card. Yeah. 1974. So, you know, and even when, like, some of the imposter phenomenon studies came out, this was in the eighties. Women are still not in the workplace.

Kelli Thompson:
So how would we typically define executive presence? Well, it was a term that was created by men for men, and so it’s naturally very masculine. Now this is through no fault of anybody’s own. This is just the way it was. Okay? But now the world is changing. And so sometimes I actually get coaching inquiries where this it’s usually a senior leader or CEO who’s a male who says to me, hey, I want you to coach Sally. Sally really needs to work on her executive presence. And so the first question I asked them is, tell me how you’re defining executive presence. And to be honest, they struggle to define it.

Kelli Thompson:
Well, you know, she just kinda doesn’t present well in meetings. And it’s just like the it’s like just like you said, it’s very vague. And so sometimes I’ll I’ll take this one way and then I’ll talk about it another way. To be if you get the feedback of you need to work on your executive presence, what I tell folks is I want a specific behavior. So I actually just had this conversation with a leader last week. And what we got down to was this individual was interrupting people in meetings. Great. That is a behavior that we can fix.

Kelli Thompson:
We can work on, you know, because, you know, they’re they’re on Zoom. We can record the meeting. We can know when she’s interrupting. Right? This is a behavior we can fix, and then that is perhaps gonna help her with executive presence because nobody likes an interrupter. So, 1, if you get that feedback, I really want folks to dial into that behavior. Is it that, you know, I have a weird laugh and I laugh too much? Is it that I interrupt people? Maybe I come to meetings and I don’t say anything at all. Maybe I come to meetings and I dominate 80% of the conversation. Those are, like, hard things for executive presence, I’m putting air quotes in, that we can actually change.

Kelli Thompson:
I like to define executive presence. I don’t even really like that word, but when I’m working with folks in it, I don’t have a set of terms in which we define executive presence. I actually focus on a concept more I call situational savviness, which is actually not in this book. It’s something stemmed from this book, but it’s it’s come a little a little away since then, as you know how these things go. And that is, you know what? Let’s actually go back to those things that people have always said about you. So, Melody, can I just ask you, what have people always called you? Like Melody, you are too what? Sensitive. Sensitive. Okay.

Kelli Thompson:
This is why you deal with sensitive strivers. Okay, perfect. But you know, so maybe in some situations, sensitivity bothered someone. But let me ask you this, because you are sensitive, Melody. Like, what has that got you? How was it your best quality?

Melody Wilding:
So much. I mean, it’s my ability to see nuances, I think, is what I would say say makes me a good coach. I think it’s made me very perceptive to people’s problems, which has helped me grow my business because I can really speak to the issues people have. Those are a few I could go on and on and on. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I have turned it into my biggest strength and my differentiator.

Kelli Thompson:
Absolutely. And so when you were kind of in this mode that you were being called too sensitive, what was the behavior that you were trying to cultivate to kind of compensate for that?

Melody Wilding:
That’s a good question. I think being more bold, aggressive

Kelli Thompson:
Mhmm.

Melody Wilding:
Thinking I had to speak up a lot, be the loudest person in the room, be a tough negotiator, not care so much, not put so much effort, or go the extra mile on situations, which, again, all of these things are for example, sometimes going too far the extra mile did catch up with me. So it was finding about that that balance, but it wasn’t quelling that side of me entirely, if that makes sense.

Kelli Thompson:
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And so, like, what I often work on then with my clients is to say, you know what? We are not gonna throw away this thing that you’ve always been called. Because if you’re sensitive, you have, like, this superpower that allows you to sense things and nuance and put your finger on things and say, this isn’t right. Right? Or I I know the the the aura of a room and how people are feeling. Some people like myself who’ve always been called too direct their whole life. I’ve been trying to tamper it down by being extra polite.

Kelli Thompson:
Okay? Some people have been to call too assertive, too bossy, too whatever. So I want you, if you’re listening, to think about what have you always been called? You’re just too what? Okay. And then what is that quality that you have cultivated to kind of counterbalance that? And I ask people to put that on a 4 box. So I’ve got for you sensitive on the left side, and then along the bottom, we’ve got let’s just bull. I heard you say the word bold, so we’ll just use bold for the sake of of time. And then I actually have them plot in all 4 quadrants and say, you know what? When is it actually advantageous for you to use high sensitivity and low boldness? What are those scenarios? When is it advantageous for you to use low sensitivity, low boldness? And we can usually kind of come up with some some funny stuff. When is it advantageous for you to be high boldness and low sensitivity? Because I have a hunch. There might be some times in your life where you want to use that quality that you actually have worked pretty hard to cultivate.

Kelli Thompson:
And then when is it, you know, advantageous for you to be highly sensitive and really bold? You know, maybe it’s in a book launch or something like that or something big. And so when we can start to see that plotted out, we’re like, oh, this feels the situational savviness feels a little better than executive presence. Because now I have all these tools in my toolbox of all these things I’ve worked hard for so that I can show up authentically in the places that I meant to be in. And I can show up using these authentic qualities of myself in the places that they’re meant to show up. And there’s not one way to show up in an executive meeting. It’s more about showing up in the way that’s most situationally correct for me in a way that aligns with my values, my my natural native approaches, and those things that, like, make me wonderful. Because here’s the thing, If you weren’t sensitive, then we wouldn’t have all these amazing programs for all these sensitive strivers in the workplace. And that’s what I want folks to remember.

Kelli Thompson:
If I wasn’t direct, then I wouldn’t have made such an impact leading change in human resource organizations and sometimes telling folks some hard things. You know? It’s all about how we balance those sorts of things.

Melody Wilding:
Yeah. That’s such I love I love that idea of situational savvy. That was it. Right?

Kelli Thompson:
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Melody Wilding:
That’s such a helpful visual, the the 2 by 2.

Kelli Thompson:
Mhmm.

Melody Wilding:
Because in any one situation, you can assess where do I need to be, and that just it helps you calibrate in real time. And like you were saying, I I have said so many times to my clients that flexibility in your approach is the ultimate professional maturity.

Kelli Thompson:
Yes.

Melody Wilding:
Because presence does not look the same with all people. How you might have presence with your direct reports might be very different than the CEO of your company. And you have to be aware of that and be able to adjust. You have to flex your style without fawning and losing yourself. And that’s such a great way to be able to orient to what what to use, what levers to pull when. Exactly. All in alignment with your values. That’s what I always tell folks.

Kelli Thompson:
Always in alignment with your values. Yep.

Melody Wilding:
Yeah. Can you walk us through your advocacy model? Because this is this is something that I think to putting things like you you were saying, you have a real talent for putting things into memorable frameworks. So can you walk

Kelli Thompson:
us through that? Absolutely. So grew up obviously as a corporate trainer, and I would always get advice on how you should speak and how you should show up. And again, this goes back to well, if you’re Melody and you’re using Kelli’s method, you’re no. And if I’m Kelli and I’m trying to use Melody’s way of showing up. No. Right? I’m never gonna be a good Melody. You know, Melody is a good Melody. And so when I was really honestly thinking about writing my book, I had to think about how am I going to write this in a voice that is authentically mine? Because there’s other leadership and confidence books on the market.

Kelli Thompson:
And then it was more about my book has a lot of stories in it. So it was really more about how am I going to tell these stories in a way that feels impactful. And so I really went back in my career and I am an introvert, believe it or not. And so even though I was a corporate trainer, it was easy for me to be silent in a room and not say anything. And I remember even when I was working in corporate, we were getting acquired like, you know, sitting in these meeting rooms thinking, I don’t even know what to say. All these people are around me. And I kind of figured out like, Oh, I don’t need to speak up on everything. I only need to speak up on the things that are in my best skills and my best talents.

Kelli Thompson:
Like, I didn’t need to speak up on all these corporate governance things they were talking about. I only need to speak up when we were talking about training. And so that really helped me build that authenticity piece. And so with, you know, it’s 3 overlapping circles. And so if you’re thinking of how am I going to deliver this message? How am I going to guide this conversation with my CEO? How am I going to give this feedback conversation? Maybe you have to prepare a presentation and I have to give it. We always start with authenticity. And the questions are is, what is mine? What, is mine to say based on my point of view? Like, what point of view can only I bring to this conversation, to this book? You know, what are the facts? What unique skills and talents do I need to articulate here? We always start with authenticity. And then the next circle down is the alignment section.

Kelli Thompson:
Because then, like, when I was writing my book or every time I build a training presentation, I think to myself, this is the how. Like, how do I want to say this? So I want you to come up with 3 words that describe how you want to be perceived. So when people are reading the book, when people are listening to you talk, what three words are coming to mind? Another way you can do this is just to say, okay, when I deliver this presentation, what are three words that describe how I want my audience to feel? Mhmm. It’s actually a great little confidence and imposter feeling tip because if you’re thinking about how your audience is supposed to feel, it’s really hard for you to think about your own feelings in that moment. So we have authenticity. What is that unique point of view that is only mine to share? Alignment. How do I wanna speak up? So if I want my audience to feel, inspired, engaged, and, like, practical, like they have a practical tool, but I’m gonna design words and slides and everything that meet those three words. And then the last circle is action.

Kelli Thompson:
And that is, what is mine to say? Another question is, what is not mine to say? Because sometimes based on what it is, the unique point of view that only I can offer, how am I speaking up in alignment with my values? Well, now we can start to ask ourselves what is mine to say? What is mine to ask? What is not mine to say? My extroverts actually love the, what is not mine to say? Because it helps them filter through more intentional conversations. And so whenever folks are speaking up, I never give them 5 easy tips for speaking up. It’s note how are we putting these in an advocacy model so that you when you do speak up on something that’s important to you, you can look back no matter how other people react. Even if they get mad or frustrated or whatever. You can say, you know what? I showed up with my unique point of view in a way that aligns with my values and I said the things I was supposed to say. And that’s the model that I use to write this book. That’s the model that I use to craft every single speaking presentation so that I’m authentically speaking on those things that are mine to say.

Melody Wilding:
Yeah. And that’s such an important takeaway for confidence overall is to switch from outcome, external validation oriented goals to more process oriented goals, which is instead of, you know, I wanna get a job by November 1st, what’s in my control is I can put out 3 applications a week, and that helps get me there. It’s the same thing. Like, you can control what you put into the advocacy model, but you can’t control how it’s going to be perceived or the outcome at the end of the day, which is hard, again, for us control freaks who are the box checkers, but so empowering that at the end of the day, you can feel in integrity. You can put your head on the pillow at night and and know that I did I did what I could do, and that that was enough.

Kelli Thompson:
I have this little card by my desk, and it says, let them be mad. Because as somebody who really struggles with, being codependent on other people’s emotions for a long time in my life, I think it also helps us remember that we have to allow other people the dignity of processing through their own emotions. Yeah. And their emotions are not ours to control. So the advocacy model reminds us exactly what you just said. We show up and say the things in alignment with our values, and we, you know, do all those things. And how other people respond, you know, it’s just it’s for them to own.

Melody Wilding:
Yes. Yeah. You’re We have therapy for that. Yes. And one of my coaches recently told me their thoughts don’t have to be any of your business. Yes. They are entitled to have their thoughts. So Mhmm.

Melody Wilding:
Really powerful. Kelli, thank you so much for everything you have shared just like gem after gem after gem, such memorable frameworks and tips and tools. Where can people find you? Where can they get your book and connect with you?

Kelli Thompson:
Yeah. So, easiest place to find my book is Amazon. It’s all over. I do read the audiobook. So if you enjoy the sound of my voice, you can listen to me on Audible. You can find me at kellerythompson.com, my website. And then I love to hang out mostly on LinkedIn. I’m at forward slash kellerythompson.

Kelli Thompson:
And sometimes I dabble on the Instagram. So you can find me over there too.

Melody Wilding:
Amazing. Thank you again. So wonderful to have you.

Melody Wilding:
Thanks for tuning in to today’s episode of Psychology at Work. If you enjoyed the show, I’d be so grateful if you could take just a minute to rate and review wherever you are listening. It’s how we reach more professionals just like you. And if you’d like to see even more content on how to feel more self assured, grounded and in control of your emotions and reactions at work, follow me on LinkedIn or head to the links in the show notes.