Melody Wilding: You’re working hard, you’re delivering results, and yet somehow bigger opportunities keep passing you by. You’re told you’re doing great work, but it doesn’t seem to translate into real advancement or recognition. You’re watching your colleagues get promoted, be invited to high visibility projects, or chosen for leadership roles, and you can’t figure out what you seem to be missing.

If this sounds familiar, you are not alone. Many smart, capable professionals, they hit this invisible ceiling where their skills aren’t the problem. But how they are seen is. And this gets to the heart of presence, how your work, your potential, your leadership qualities are perceived by the people who matter most to your career.

And it’s one of the most intangible things that can feel so frustrating to navigate. Because you can’t exactly quantify presence on a resume or measure it on a performance review. But you know it when you see it. You know those people who walk into a room and somehow command attention without saying a word.

There are those people whose ideas get heard. And remember people who seem to effortlessly build trust even when they’re not the most senior person in the room. And here’s what I’ve learned over time. Presence is not some mystical quality you are either born with or not. It is something you can develop, especially when you understand what it really means and how it shows up in the professional world.

So that’s exactly why we are diving into this today with my guest, Lorraine K Lee. She’s the author of the fantastic new book, Unforgettable Presence, How to Command Attention, Influence Others, and Make An Impact. Lorraine is a friend, a colleague, she’s a fellow introvert, which I love because she proves that presence isn’t about being the loudest or most extroverted person.

She’s also one of the most generous people I know she’s always willing to share her insights and she just loves lifting up others. Our books actually came out within a few weeks of each other, and I have been so thrilled to see all of the buzz that unforgettable presence has been getting. And what I find so compelling about Lorraine’s story is how her own career illustrates what she teaches.

Her career grew exponentially and unexpectedly over the pandemic when she decided to get more comfortable with public speaking and as she tells it, she was full of nerves, but she spoke whenever and wherever she could. And in a very surprise turn of events speaking became a side hustle while she was leading Prezi’s editorial team, which she talks about today.

And so looking back. She actually got laid off in 2022. Here’s what’s cool. That combination of her speaking experience, the career brand, she had created her 10 years as a founding editor at companies like LinkedIn, Prezi, that gave her the confidence to start her own company, which is called Rise Learning Solutions, and now she’s a keynote speaker.

She’s a trainer, content creator, instructor, teaching global audiences through LinkedIn Learning and Stanford Continuing Studies. And looking back, she has realized that all of the opportunities that have come her way happened because of her professional presence and her career brand. How people see her and where they see her.

And that’s such a powerful insight, and it’s exactly what makes her the perfect person to help us understand how presence really works and how we can all develop it more intentionally. So here we go. Here’s my conversation with Lorraine Lee.

Lorraine, welcome I’m so glad to have you here.

Lorraine Lee: Oh my gosh. Thank you for having me. I’m so excited that we’re making this happen.

Melody Wilding: Yes, and we were just talking before we started recording that we have so many colleagues that have had books come out this year, and one of those people is you. So your, your new book, your first book, it’s called Unforgettable Presence. That came out how long ago now?

Lorraine Lee: I think it’s it was late April.

Melody Wilding: Exciting. So exciting and it’s received already such a huge response.

I’m just so happy for you

Lorraine Lee: Oh, thank

Melody Wilding: And I I wanna talk about, to start, like how did you get here and why did you write a book called Unforgettable Presence? ‘Cause I think you have a very interesting, very relatable story that a lot of people will probably see themselves in.

Lorraine Lee: It was not on my vision board, my bingo card that I would end up writing a book. so I actually started my career off in tech. So the first decade of my career I was leading editorial teams at tech companies. So I was a founding editor at LinkedIn, a founding editor at Prezi most recently. And it was at LinkedIn,

that was the story that kind of, set the stage for this book, although I didn’t realize it was going to at the time. Where, loved, I loved my experience at LinkedIn. I was someone who worked really hard. I worked on high visibility, high priority projects. My coworkers liked me. I liked my coworkers.

You know, I came to work with a positive attitude. I was someone who was really ambitious, so I, I really wanted to get promoted and to reach that senior level and to keep climbing the corporate ladder. And you would think that all those things on paper looked like, oh yeah, of course Lorraine’s gonna get promoted.

And I was there for six years too, right? So, like a long time there as well. But as hard as I pushed, as hard as I tried, it just didn’t happen for me. And it was really frustrating. I didn’t know why. what, what was I doing wrong? ’cause again, like it, it seemed like everything was, was going right on paper.

And it wasn’t until after I left LinkedIn that I did a lot of self-reflection. I talked to mentors, talked to peers, and I realized that, I was missing a big part of presence, right, in terms of how others perceive me and and how they saw my reputation at work. And then COVID happened a few months later after I left LinkedIn.

And then I realized, oh, presence is not just how others see you, but also where others see you. And that can be your virtual presence, your LinkedIn presence. it all kind of came together. That presence was this thing that I was really passionate about, learning more about, teaching others about.

And then, the book came, a few years later.

Melody Wilding: Yeah, and I remember when you were testing titles for it and getting feedback and I just, I remember Unforgettable Presence being on that list. And I think I even said to you like, that one, that’s the one that really stands out. Obviously it has the word unforgettable and it, but it, it does. It just really catches you.

And I would love to hear, how do you define presence? Because there’s different facets to it, as you were saying, you have sort of your virtual, the, the, the clothes you wear, the words you say. But I think presence can also be this very abstract concept that we get told feedback, oh, you need to have greater presence.

And you think, well, what does that even mean? So how do you define it?

Lorraine Lee: My goal with this book was to redefine what presence means, because I think a lot of us, we hear presence. We think, oh, executive presence, how I’m showing up in a room, the high stakes situation, I’m perhaps of a certain seniority level, right? I’m an executive, so I need to have executive presence, and I think executive presence is really.

But I think it can be a bit limiting. It can be intimidating, as you say. what you know, what does it even mean when we get feedback about having more executive presence? And so how I define presence is both how and where you are seen. And executive presence is one piece of that. And so my hope with this book is to show people that presence is a bunch of smaller moments that build up into a holistic picture of your overall presence. And so it’s really how we show up in meetings and lead meetings. It’s how we are presenting in an everyday situation, right? It doesn’t just have to be in front of the, the C-suite. It’s our LinkedIn presence, right?

How are we showing up a outside of the office? It’s our virtual presence, right? Our video presence video is gonna be one of the main ways we communicate. Even if you’re going into the office, you’re still going to be getting on video at some point. So what is our video presence? And are all these things aligning in such a way that, again, we’re being consistent at all these touch points and really building our presence, over time.

Melody Wilding: When you think about your experience at LinkedIn or Prezi where you had this realization that, oh, this is a piece I am missing, what was it for you? What were some of those specific missing pieces that you realized, oh, this is an area I need to shore up or work on?

Lorraine Lee: At LinkedIn, I unfortunately only realized retroactively, but you know, the way I was showing up, I would say, my, and again, like I talk about the concept of a brand in the book, I didn’t realize that this was my brand.

But in retrospect I realized that okay, people knew me as a hard worker, someone who executed well, I executed quickly. Someone who you know, came to work with a positive attitude, a can-do attitude, all great things at work, but if I’m trying to become a senior leader, those aren’t the words that you want to be the first things that people think about, right? Instead, you want people to think about you as strategic, maybe visionary, a great cross-functional collaborator, someone who can influence well. And so I wish I had realized that there’s, an intentionality that goes behind that as you’re trying to advance and figure out what comes next.

At Prezi, I had the benefit of hindsight, and so I came into that role, a lot more prepared. I talk about this concept of becoming the CEO of your own career. So I definitely took on that mindset. I, I started that role being very intentional about, okay, I wanna get promoted. what is it going to take, what are the skills I need?

what are your expectations? And let’s also like regularly check in and make sure I’m on track. And so that was one of the, the biggest shifts, I think, my presence from LinkedIn versus presence at Prezi.

Melody Wilding: Yes. Yes. Well, and I love too, that you had to have the courage to say, this is what I want. Right. And that that sends a totally different message to people than just, well, I’m happy to be here and I’ll, I’ll take whatever you give me there. You mentioned the word intentionality, which, I think is a great way to describe it.

And you said this word or this phrase, career brand. So how do we, how do we know what ours is? Because I’m going to assume you’ll say, well, everyone has one. but how do we really know what ours is? And then we can talk about how do we start changing it or shifting it.

Lorraine Lee: I think a lot of people don’t actually realize that they have a brand, right? And so career brand is really personal brand. Now I call it career brand because personal brand, like sometimes there’s negative connotations with it. It’s like on the loud person, like always marketing myself or like a personal brand, like a brand is for a company.

But I think career brand better encapsulates like what exactly is a brand in service of a brand is there to help you in your career. So when you think of it that way, hopefully it’s a little bit more approachable, digestible, something that doesn’t make you kind of like squeamish or uncomfortable. And then, and then to really define it as, okay, your brand is your reputation.

So like you said, Melody, like we all have a brand, we all have a reputation. Now, do we again, want to be intentional about it and be thoughtful about it and curate it and strengthen it and form it? Or are we going to kind of sit back and let people define it for us, which is what I did at LinkedIn, right?

I wasn’t really forward thinking and thoughtful about it. And so, again, we all have a brand, we all have a reputation. Like one of the best ways to, to go about finding out what yours currently is, is by doing an audit and talking to your manager, talking to your peers, even people like outside of the company.

Right. How would people describe you? I think, a lot of us in our heads, we have a certain way of like how we think we’re perceived or how we want to be perceived, but it’s really important to make sure others are aligned with that because there’s, there’s often a disconnect.

Melody Wilding: That’s for sure. How do you ask that without it, without it feeling awkward?

Lorraine Lee: I think, being upfront and honest, I’m trying to reach this specific goal, or I’m trying to be more intentional about my career and I know that my reputation, maybe you don’t even need to say the word brand right, but my reputation is really important. It’s gonna be an important factor in helping me reach those goals.

I’m asking a bunch of people, What are 10 to 15 words that you would use to describe me or what is, a strength of mine or what is an area that you think I need to work on? So I think whenever you ask, like trying to be as specific as possible is, is always a good thing.

Melody Wilding: Yeah, and I, I’m putting myself in the shoes of the leader. I think I would really appreciate if someone came to me and asked that, because it shows situational awareness, right? It shows you realize, that at the more mid or even senior levels, that perception is reality. And yes, the hard work does matter, but it becomes the baseline.

And what matters more or just as much at least, is your relationships and how other people see you in your ability to influence and persuade them. And so I think I would appreciate if someone had that awareness and also drive to think about how navigating those sort of dynamics.

Lorraine Lee: Yeah, a hundred percent. And, and you asked too about, how do you even get started, like thinking through this? Well, I talk about the Epic career brand framework in my book, and so that stands for experiences, personality, identity, and community. And so what we’re talking about here, your network, that’s the C community.

A lot of people forget about that. And again, they have a certain way that they’re being perceived, but they’re not realizing, okay, how does my network actually see me? How do the decision makers see me? And also are they talking about me? Do they know about me? Are they saying the right things about me when I’m not in the room?

Melody Wilding: That’s true. That’s true, right? ’cause visibility. It’s not just Yes it is. It is frequency and how many people are talking about you. It’s also the quality or the depth with which they’re talking about you. ’cause someone could know your name and say, oh, Lorraine is great. But if they know your strengths, if they know what your goals are, that’s a totally different level of visibility because they can say, Lorraine would be great to have in this conversation, or to loop in on this project.

And so it’s not just kind of this surface level recognition of who you are. It’s also then a deeper understanding of your goals, where you wanna go, what you want to be known for. Would you say that’s right?

Lorraine Lee: Yeah, exactly. It’s more about strategic visibility. Like we can be visible and be like really loud and all the slack channels and like always be raising our hand in meetings, but like maybe we’re not saying anything of value, right? So strategic visibility, making sure you’re being seen by the right people in the right places at the right time.

And then also being thoughtful about the way that you’re being visible. So not just I did this, I did that, but oh, let me tie this to business results, or let me like connect this to something that you actually care about as a leader.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. And something, I point out in Managing Up. ’cause I, I’ve seen the, I’ve seen this trip people up so many times and I wonder if you have too, is that, you wanna make sure you’re bringing visibility and you’re building your career brand around something you actually do want to be known for, because you may be, I think the example I use in the book is you may be someone that’s been involved with a lot of like crisis communication, or you’re the person people come to for turnarounds.

But you don’t actually want to be known for that going forward. And so this sort of taking stock is really important ’cause you can kind of just default be known for something and pigeonhole yourself. Yeah.

Lorraine Lee: Like I think if you’re really good at something, it’s very easy for people and it’s great that you’re good at it, right? But maybe that’s not necessarily what we wanna do, or we’re good at something else, then we’re more passionate about that. So yeah, a hundred percent.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. And I seem to remember that you have an exercise in the book. It’s like a this two column assessment. So can you walk us through what that is? How do we use it?

Lorraine Lee: Very simple. So we have one column that says Current at the top, and then one column that says Future. And basically this is, this is an exercise that I do with teams and I’ll ask ’em to think about their career brand and how do people currently describe you and how would you want people to describe you in the future?

And it’s such a simple exercise because what ends up happening is a lot of people know the future state of things. Then they’re like, oh, I’m not actually sure how people currently see me. And so it’s, it’s a good prompt if you don’t know, that’s the signal to okay, start asking around. But then also, it’s interesting because sometimes people do know and they’re like, oh, I, I’m seen as, X, Y, and Z, but I wanna get to this point.

And so it, putting it on paper I think really makes you realize, okay, here’s sort of the, the gap and how can I start taking actions or communicating in a certain way, or finding sponsors and mentors who will help me get to that future state a little bit faster. And then, I always like to say like share, share the future state of things of how you want to be seen with the people around you, because these are the people who are going to be able to say oh, melody, you want to be seen as more strategic in meetings?

Oh, now I, I know that I’ll keep an eye out and I’ll let you know oh, you did an amazing job when you said this. I think you look really strategic at that moment, and so you’re getting, again, more people in your feedback circle, more people who are invested in helping you reach that goal.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. Yeah, and just one of the un underlying like lessons or assumptions there is realizing the people around you want to help because I think, and you can probably relate to this as someone who is introverted, I know you’re also just, you’re a very kindhearted person and I think we tend to default to, well, I don’t wanna be a burden.

Those people are busy, so I don’t wanna ask for their help. So how have you navigated that, or how do you talk about that in the book? How do we get past this hangup of we’re imposing on people if we’re asking for feedback or we’re asking them for some level of sponsorship or mentorship.

Lorraine Lee: Yeah, so I, I had the, the opportunity to interview nearly three dozen business leaders, content creators, bestselling authors, so many cool people for the book. And Ross Pomerance, who’s Corporate Bro online, if you’ve seen him. He said something similar, so he’s actually introverted and he said, yeah, we kind of get in our heads like, oh, we’re bothering people, or we’re just like extra empathetic. And so I think first and foremost, like putting yourself in that person’s shoes, realizing, oh, if someone came to me, yeah, I would, I would love to help. I want to be that support system. So I think that’s like a very quick and easy mindset shift.

And then one other one is. you’re going to people asking for help, there’s ways that you can do it that make the other person feel really good too. So asking for advice, for example, right? Instead of saying, oh, can you gimme feedback on this? I’m trying to, trying to, you know, reach this goal.

Oh, do you have advice for me? I really admired you from, from what you did here, and I think you can have a lot of insight. Oh my gosh. People love giving advice. So it’s sometimes just like a small tweak in the way that you frame things or the words that you use that make people more open and willing, to share and to help.

Melody Wilding: That’s so true. I love when people want my advice,well, let me tell you what I 

Lorraine Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Melody Wilding: great. I love that. Okay, let’s shift gears a little bit. I wanna talk about presence. Digitally and on video or online, because we’ve talked a lot on this show about being more vocal in meetings and we may touch on that, but I wanna zoom in on the digital piece because we haven’t really talked about being visible in some of these other ways that, that you mention and you talk about in the book and the rest of your work.

So we’re living in the very digital first world, obviously. Many people are going are back in the office, quote unquote. But as you said, you still have to be on virtual meetings. You still might be hybrid a few days of the week. You may be working in a totally distributed organization where part of your team is in another part of the world.

So we can’t avoid this. In your opinion and in your experience, what have you found? What are those like right places we need to be showing up to have visibility, have more of this kind of like surround sound comprehensive approach to our visibility?

Lorraine Lee: I am so passionate talking about video because I feel like video can be such a superpower for people because it’s not something that a lot of us think about intentionally. we’ll show up and we’re on camera and we’re, we’re talking to people, but it can really be a competitive advantage and really help you stand out and help form and create like positive impressions in people’s minds, like subconsciously, right? That you’re not even realizing that are happening. you know, when you have a bad sort of video presence.

And so in my book, like the first three chapters, I talk about foundational skills. And so you, we already touched on one career brand.

Video presence is the second one. LinkedIn presence is the third. And I think these are ones that are not traditionally ones that we would think about, but they’re super important. So video presence, I talk about thet method in the book. Tech, energy, aesthetics. These are the three things to think about before you get on any video call.

It does not need to be like a super fancy setup, right? But again, intentionality, a little bit thought here, okay, what’s my tech? How am I showing up? How am I starting off small talk? How am I starting off conversations? And then aesthetics, right? do I have good lighting? Is my framing correct? Am I making eye contact?

Like all those things while seemingly small do have an impact on how others perceive you. So the video presence is, is really key there. And then LinkedIn presence as well. I call LinkedIn our virtual water cooler virtual landing page and our ultimate virtual office.

So you wanna make sure that you’re seen at work, right? And at the office. So I feel like LinkedIn is such a powerful tool to help you build your confidence. This is something that I I wasn’t expecting when I started posting on LinkedIn in corporate, but really helps you build your confidence and then that translates into the workplace as well.

Melody Wilding: Very true. I’ve definitely seen that as well. And I wanna come back to dig into LinkedIn more. ’cause I, I think it is very underutilized. Even if you’re not interested in a new job right now, you may be in the future, but still no matter what, it’s a valuable platform to be on. So we’ll loop back to that in a second.

But going back to video and presence on video, so we had, it was tech energy and what was the last one?

Lorraine Lee: Aesthetics.

Melody Wilding: Aesthetics. Okay, so on tech, what do you recommend? What are some key things people usually miss or mess up?

Lorraine Lee: Two things, two pieces of hardware that are important, your webcam and your microphone. Now, I would actually say to get a microphone first because if your video is bad, I can at least still hear you and pay attention. If your video is good, but your audio is bad, just forget it. Like I’m not gonna understand anything that’s going on.

So having an external microphone is really great. The microphones in our laptops not the best. So to have that clear and crisp sound, I think goes a long way. And then having the external webcam is really key because what I still see melody a lot of is people are, okay, let’s say like my monitors here and the, my laptop webcam is here.

So I’m turning away, not looking at you to look at my monitor. Because I don’t have an external webcam, and that is just, it’s not a good experience. you know, I’m talking to you, but it’s also what is Lorraine looking at? what, you know, it’s hard, harder for you to focus, right? And so to have the webcam front and center, it makes it much easier to have eye contact.

And then of course, it’s crisper and nicer quality as well, because webcam’s inside, laptops not, not the best quality.

Melody Wilding: Yes, and I’ll give a shout out to the mic. I use is a TR 2100. So an Audio Technica 2100, it’s very affordable. I think it’s about $50 on Amazon.

Amazon and so you might even be able to expense it for your company or deduct it if you work for yourself. It is highly worth it, and you just literally plug it into your USB and it works.

It’s fantastic.

Lorraine Lee: Yeah, that’s a really good call out. Like these things don’t need to be expensive.

Melody Wilding: not at all, not at all. With the eye contact because, the thing I hear all the time from people is they say, I know that. I know I have to look in the camera, but it just feels so unnatural. I wanna look at people’s faces on my computer. How do I, how do I get myself to look at the camera when it just, it doesn’t feel right.

Do you have any tips or wisdom for that?

Lorraine Lee: I do. So. If you’re not wanting to get any extra, hardware, you know, if you, you zoom the, or excuse me, you, you shrink the zoom window, like as small as you can, pull it to the top of the screen. That will help, at least in peripheral vision or maybe depending on sort of your, your camera setup and the height of everything, you might be able to look at someone else’s face and also, still look like you’re making eye contact. I actually have a, a whole list of tools that I use in the book, so if anyone’s interested, you can grab it there. But one of the tools that I use that I mentioned in the book is this tool called Plexi Camm. And so it actually allows me to, it’s like this plastic, contraption that the camera sits on top of. And so I can move the camera like farther down on my screen and Melody, your face is in this like little piece of plastic right now. So it like helps me focus. So I’m like seeing you as I talk and it also looks like I’m making eye contact. So there’s like a bunch of tools out there that can, can make it helpful.

But yeah, I agree. Like I used to not have this and I would just look just straight ahead into a black, a black dot and, you get used to it after a while, but now that I am used to seeing people’s faces, it’s just so much easier to, to make the eye contact.

Melody Wilding: I love that. Oh, that’s so helpful. E, excellent. I love that in the book you give people specific tools because I.

Lorraine Lee: Lot of extra resources. Yeah.

Melody Wilding: That’s fantastic. Now, when it comes to, I think the E of the T framework is another one that is worth talking about. What are some pointers around energy on video? ’cause it does translate differently than when we’re in person.

Lorraine Lee: The first thing is that we need more energy than we think. So whatever makes us feel comfortable at home on video, dial it up like at least 50% because it takes a little bit more to break through the barrier of the screen. So if you’re feeling a little bit over the top, it’s probably exactly the right amount of energy.

And then one of the other biggest mistakes I see is not enough. Body language and hand gestures on camera. So that’s something I see a lot with my, coaching clients or even, you know, just speaking at companies. So what happens is, again, ’cause we’re at home, we’re kind of relaxed, like we rest our hands on our keyboard, on our mouse, on our lap.

And so what we end up seeing is like little twitches of the shoulder or maybe some fingers popping up from below the camera, the bottom of the camera. But hands are a super powerful way to build trust, show more energy. You appear more personable, warmer, all this interesting research around it.

So a lot of positive things. So, again, so aesthetics that focuses a little bit more on the framing, but once you have the right framing, it becomes easier to start using your hands on camera and making sure that they’re seen invisible, and then those naturally just make you seem more energetic. Yeah.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. Yeah. That’s so important, right? ’cause it, it feels very sterile when you can’t see someone’s hands. And like you said, I, I think I’ve read research as well, how, just, psychologically from a evolutionary standpoint, how we wanna see someone’s hands. So we. We feel they’re not a threat and we feel more connected to them.

and something important I’ve learned and I I, I’ve seen you present. You’re an amazing presenter and I love the whole shebang you put together. Just all of it is awesome. But using, using the box you have more effectively to also help you and help other people remember what you’re saying and actually take it in.

So doing things like, well, we’re starting at A and we’re going to B. And if you can’t see what. If you’re not watching this on the video, I’m using sort of like a timeline, creating a timeline with your hands, which can help people just visualize what you’re saying. Or even holding up your fingers and saying, we have three pillars, number one, number two, number three, and it just makes it more engaging when, and we have to use every trick in our bag because we’re fighting against Slack messages, emails, you know, reminders on someone’s 

Lorraine Lee: Yeah. Yeah. 

Melody Wilding: and, and everything. So we have to use everything at our disposal. Yeah.

Lorraine Lee: Yeah, those are some great tips. And I think, so I, I love yeah, saying okay, if you’re not sure, like what to do, yeah, there’s some really concrete things you can do if you’re like listing things, et cetera. One other thing I like to say is sometimes I think people get in their heads and they’re like, wait, I’ve forgotten how to use my hand.

I’m like overthinking it. I don’t even know what’s what I’m doing. So I think if you’re starting to feel stressed out about it, just relax. And I think, don’t overthink it, We’re naturally, we naturally use our hands and use our body when we’re talking. So, I think sometimes if you’re overthinking it, like it can get, you’re, you just forget how you use your hands normally.

So just relax. That can be another good exercise too. And also like a wave at the end and at the start of a meeting is also like a nice, easy first step.

Melody Wilding: That’s great. Okay, so we’ve talked a little bit about presence on video. is there anything you wanna mention about the A of the T framework Aesthetics?

Lorraine Lee: two things. Lighting is really important and we want the light coming from the front. We don’t wanna be back lit, right. And then the second thing is the framing. So the framing helps with kind of all those other things we talked about with the eye contact. It helps with the, the, the hand gestures and the body language.

And so a lot of people, their, their heads will be at the bottom of the video frame because the camera’s coming from up top, so it looks, or it feels like that person is looking down on you. And then also, like physically, your presence is not taking up all the space. And there’s also people who are too close.

When it’s just too close to your face, like people are not seeing your hands and your other body gestures, and it feels a little bit less natural. Like right now, like you and I are framed well, so it’s like kind of more like in person, like we see a little bit more of each other. And so yeah. I think framing is, is another key thing.

But again, like all these things are very easily fixable. So, once you’re intentional about it, like it goes a long way in, in establishing your, your virtual presence.

Melody Wilding: Yeah, and you don’t have to do them all at once,

Lorraine Lee: Yeah. Step by step.

Melody Wilding: add them in or you can test one thing in for a week during your next meeting. So yeah, it’s very manageable. Yet I think it have a disproportionate improvement for people.

Lorraine Lee: yeah. Exactly.

Melody Wilding: There’s one more model in your book that I wanna break down, and that’s called the Rave model, RAVE.

So talk to us about that one.

Lorraine Lee: Yes, the rave model is the model I came up with to help someone build influence because sort of like presence, influence can be kind of a nebulous word. You’re like, you want it, but what is it? so RAVE stands for relationships, appearances, visibility and expertise.

And these are what I see as the four key factors to to building influence

Melody Wilding: Okay, so relationships. It was relationships, appearance, visibility,

Lorraine Lee: expertise. Yep, exactly.

Melody Wilding: break those down a little bit further. What is that? What does relationships mean in relationship? Pun intended? In relationship to influence. How do you mean that?

Lorraine Lee: yeah. So there’s a lot of different things that you can do. So I’ll share one tip, around that. And one is that is really powerful, again, does not take that much to, to implement is. Turning off autopilot small talk and implementing a strategy that I mentioned multiple times in my book called Conversational Threading.

And what happens when, especially when we’re on video, but even, you know, passing each other in the hall, is that we’re all on autopilot. So if you ask me a question, how are you, you can predict what my answer is and that I’m gonna ask it back and I’m gonna know what your answer is. And, and then that’s the end of the conversation.

And we haven’t really connected or learned anything about each other. If you make small tweaks to your question, then it requires that person to think you have some more information to go off of, and you built that relationship. So instead of, oh, you know, we passed each other in the hall. Hi Melody, how was your weekend?

I might ask, oh, hi Melody. what was the highlight of your weekend? And now you have to actually think, okay, what did I do this weekend? And let me pull out some information to share it with Lorraine. Now, conversational threading is when you give me those threads to pull on. So instead of maybe mentioning one thing, you might say, oh, I actually did a few things that were really fun.

I went on a bike ride. I went to my niece’s birthday party, and I, swam because it was so hot, in, in New York, right? And so, now I can say, oh. I can pick which thread I wanna pull on and learn a little bit more about you. Maybe like biking is a hobby, for example. Right. And then we can talk a little bit more about that.

And so also on the flip side, like I want to ask questions that will elicit threads. So I think that’s a very powerful way to connect, to take advantage of small talk, which is a very good thing if it’s done well. It’s one of the best ways that we build rapport and that we connect with each other.

Melody Wilding: I love that, conversational threading. Yeah, it’s just a small pattern interrupt.

Lorraine Lee: Yeah, exactly.

Melody Wilding: Can jolt someone out of that autopilot. That’s great. Okay, so then how about appearance? What are we talking about there? We talked a little bit about appearance on video, but, is, is there another element to it?

Lorraine Lee: Yeah, appearance on video is really, really important. And I think also, you know, dressing to impress or dressing for the job that you want is also helpful. you know, it, it depends on context and culture as well. But if you are looking to get that promotion to advance in senior leadership, like how you show up and how professional and polished you seem is going to influence people’s perception of you again, like whether most likely subconsciously, right, but making sure that you

dressed apart, and, and that you’re thoughtful about that. I know me personally,during COVID times, I think I went like way too casual. I was like, oh, I’m home. I’m just gonna wear all these like startup t-shirts. But I don’t think, you know, at least for me, I don’t feel like that aligned with, how I wanted to be seen.

I was, you know, I got a promotion and I wanted to be, that director of senior level. And so I think even like a nice sweatshirt or, even like a regular t-shirt that’s not like a startup T-shirt I think goes a long way. So there’s like nuances kind of depending on what your goals are, but yeah, just being aware of how others are are perceiving you.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. Yeah. It makes a difference. It does, it does make a difference. And also we had, actually my personal stylist on the show, and we

Lorraine Lee: Oh, cool.

Melody Wilding: yeah, how there can also be this feedback loop of when you dress in a more. Way that you feel confident in, then you are showing up differently and people respond to you, not just because of what you’re wearing, but because of how you’re carrying yourself.

How what we were talking about energy before, like all of that, it becomes a total package and it becomes this positive like reinforcement of itself makes a big difference.

Lorraine Lee: Yeah. That’s so cool. You have a stylist, I didn’t realize. No wonder you’re always all fashionable.

Melody Wilding: Yes. Well, she, she helps me a lot and I just, I hate making decisions and I find shopping incredibly overwhelming.

And so just to have someone to, shortcut and basically tell me what to do and have a model to follow, it is, huge. Huge.

Lorraine Lee: Love that.

Melody Wilding: Highly recommend. okay, so we’ve talked about relationships, appearance, visibility. Again, we, we talked, we touched on this before, so maybe we can talk about, I wanted to loop back to LinkedIn.

So can we talk about visibility in the context of LinkedIn, especially if you’re not using it for job searching.

Lorraine Lee: To your point, I mean a lot of us and some people still, but a lot of us like have thought about LinkedIn as a job site and so much has changed. So much has changed over the, even just the last few years. But like I joined LinkedIn, 2013. Content was just becoming a thing on the platform. So it’s an amazing to see how it’s changed.

And LinkedIn has really been focused now on content, community and conversations. And again, like I call it the ultimate virtual office, like it is the place to show people. You exist to stay top of mind, right? Even if people are not engaging with you. There’s so many, as I like to call them, quiet lurkers out there.

I have people past coworkers, haven’t talked to in years, haven’t engaged with one post of mine, randomly pop up in my DM as being like, I’m really enjoying like what you’re talking about. And so I think it’s a really powerful way to, yes, stay top of mind, to refine your voice and to refine like what exactly is it that you want to be known for?

And. Something interesting happens because posting on LinkedIn can be kind of a scary, difficult thing. People internally, and I know this happened with me at Prezi, like they see you differently. They see you as more of a leader. wow, Lorraine’s putting herself out there, she’s sharing insights. She’s sh, she’s teaching people things that, you know, she’s passionate about.

And so I think it’s a very powerful way to, to shape people’s perception of you, even if you’re still at a company. Like it’s very powerful to still be active on LinkedIn.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. Yeah. Like you were saying, you never know. You never know who is watching. And, I think you have found this as well, that it’s also, it matters for your Google ability because your LinkedIn posts, your LinkedIn profile will be one of the first things that come up when someone Googles you. Your posts will come up in also in Google results, but also in Google images.

So it’s a good way to control that presence as well.

Lorraine Lee: Yeah, exactly. Everyone should Google themselves and see what pops up.

Melody Wilding: It’s good. Good career brand hygiene.

Lorraine Lee: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Melody Wilding: For sure. Okay. And then the last part of the rave model is expertise. So talk to us about that. Any good tips there?

Lorraine Lee: Yeah, well LinkedIn certainly is part of that, right? Again, establishing what you know about what you’re known for, more outwardly facing like that. And then I think there’s other less conventional ways as well to show your expertise. So I do talk about, being able to ask for feedback I think shows a level of expertise where you are.

Not needing to be like the know-it-all, but you’re still, open to learning and improving. And so I think that’s a very powerful way for someone to trust you and want to work with you. And then also, yeah, you do want to be, as we said earlier, like you do want to be known for something at work. We want people to know that they can come to us for something.

So whether that is. doing a kind of a lunch and learn session at work, for example, that can help people get to know what you about, whether it’s sharing your learnings on a regular basis that others can learn from, and that sort of overlaps into visibility as well. Right. So, there’s kind of a little bit overlap across all of these. But Yeah, expertise, like you want to make sure that people know that you know a lot about something and that you can be that go-to person, that trusted person that they can turn to.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. What I like, like about that too is it becomes a win-win where you are sharing, you are establishing what you wanna be known for, but it’s also value add for other people. It’s not this sort of grandstanding look at how great I am. It’s you’re teaching other people. That’s what I’m hearing what you’re saying.

Lorraine Lee: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s the best, especially for us introverts. we kind of get nervous about the attention on us, but if you can frame it like, oh, I’m helping others, I feel like that feels a lot more, authentic and, and maybe comfortable.

Melody Wilding: Yeah, exactly. And I found, I found a lot of people in my world also love mentorship for that reason.

Lorraine Lee: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Melody Wilding: way for them to put their knowledge and smarts on, on display, but you’re giving back to someone else, which is very meaningful.

Lorraine Lee: Yeah, yeah. That’s a great call out too.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. Lorraine, thank you so much. This is so helpful. I love all the really actionable tips and tricks you have given us.

Where can people find you? Find the book, what’s the best place to send them?

Lorraine Lee: You can find me on LinkedIn. I would love for you to connect with me. Let me know you heard me on this podcast. My book can be found wherever books are sold. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble, et cetera. And then I have a weekly newsletter, Career Bites, Bite-sized Tips to Supercharge Your Career in three minutes or less that you can find at my website, Lorraine K. Lee dot com, and then many, many LinkedIn learning courses as well.

Melody Wilding: Amazing, Lorraine. Thank you.

Lorraine Lee: Thank you so much.