Melody Wilding: The toughest negotiations at work happen with people who outrank you. Whether you want to walk away with more headcount, an extension on a deadline, a project sponsor’s full backing, all of that depends less on the strength of your case and more on what you understand about the psychology of negotiating upwards.

 

Melody Wilding: And that’s exactly what we’re getting into with today’s guest, Kwame Christian. [00:01:00] He is one of the world’s most trusted voices on conflict and difficult conversations. He’s also the founder of the American Negotiation Institute, an attorney, bestselling author, and a global podcast host who has helped millions of people across the world have better, braver, more productive conversations.

 

Melody Wilding: This is not the usual surface level advice to know your audience, research your counterpart. We are going much deeper into what it takes to influence someone with more power than you when the dynamics are messy and complicated. You will learn how to ask for what you need without sounding entitled, how to frame your request so it connects to what matters to them, how to handle resistance without getting rattled, and how to manage your own emotions.

 

Melody Wilding: At the end of the day here, the goal is not to just get an immediate yes at the cost of a relationship, but to come out of the discussion with more trust and social capital that you can draw on next time when something important is on the line. [00:02:00] All right. Let’s get into it.

 

Melody Wilding: Kwame, it is such a treat to have you on the show, my friend, my colleague, to talk about such an important topic and such a loaded topic, which is negotiation. And before I started recording, we were, we were chatting in the green room, and I said to you, “Whenever I ask my clients or my readers, ‘What do you wanna hear about?

 

Melody Wilding: What challenges are you hav- having? What is top of mind for you?’ The number one thing that comes back is negotiation.” So we have the world’s fore- foremost expert on negotiation here in the workplace, and I wanna start by getting on the same page with what we even mean by negotiation. So give us that definition in your terms

 

Kwame Christian: Yes. So this is a great place to start because for me, the definition of negotiation is any time you’re in a conversation and somebody in the conversation wants something. That’s a negotiation. Because what I’ve [00:03:00] recognized is that one of the biggest barriers people have in negotiation is that they don’t recognize when they should be utilizing the skill. So you can’t be very good at it if you don’t know when to use it. So when you recognize that you’re negotiating all the time, it’s not a question of, of whether or not you should learn it, it’s just a question of whether or not you want to do it well. That’s the key.

 

Melody Wilding: Mm. That is so, it’s so enlightening, and I think probably mind-blowing for someone listening to say a negotia- you enter into a negotiation when someone wants something, because that blows out of the water the typical conception of negoti- negotiation we have, especially in the workplace, which is we think about salary negotiation, contract negotiation, a big sales negotiation.

 

Melody Wilding: So from your perspective with that definition and all of the people you’ve worked with, you have counseled over the years, we’re doing negotiation all the time at work. What [00:04:00] are some of those everyday moments where someone actually is in a negotiation and doesn’t realize it? What are some of those moments?

 

Kwame Christian: Think about any time somebody asks you anything. That’s a negotiation. Think about any time you ask anybody anything. That’s a negotiation. Because even if it’s something simple, I’m asking a simple question, not even asking for a behavior change or some activity. If I’m asking a question, my– I’m negotiating for information. The way that I ask the question will have a significant impact on the way I receive that information. So let’s say I’m talking to a direct report, and they give me their, their deliverable, and I say, “Oh, why’d you do it that way? Hmm, okay.” And then let’s compare that to, “Hey, out of curiosity, what led you to design it in this way?” Oh, those are two different things. Because the why question often triggers defensiveness, and it leads to shorter responses. You’ve diminished the [00:05:00] psychological safety in the interaction without even recognizing it. But if you change that why question to what or how, you can get the same information without the danger of triggering defensiveness and eliminating vulnerability because they don’t feel safe anymore. And so if you start thinking about these everyday interactions as negotiations, now you’re able to bring these skills to the forefront when it matters most. But if we just go into the conversation and freestyle, we’re gonna run into invisible barriers and wonder why we’re not getting the outcomes that we want.

 

Melody Wilding: Mm-hmm. Okay, so you’ve, you’ve mentioned a few times now the skills within negotiation. So what are some of those? Because again, I think when, a- and especially for a long time when I thought about negotiation, you think of it as butting heads. You think of it as something that is really tense. What you just said, though, and, and that, that is gold, switching from why to what questions immediately takes away some of that defensiveness.

 

Melody Wilding: But that example you just gave, it doesn’t really [00:06:00] sound like this really high-stakes, high-tension moment. So from, from where you sit and how you teach negotiation, what are some of the skills that actually make up your ability to get results?

 

Kwame Christian: You know what’s interesting, Melody? ‘Cause as you describe this, I recognized a skill that I’ve never said before, ever. This is, this is really interesting. It’s the skill to understand what a negotiation really is. It’s just a conversation with a destination. That’s it. And so a lot of times we have these stories that we give to certain elements of our life, and we never take the time to question the story. Because you described it as a really high-stakes situation, and what I’m recognizing now is that if we think about these conversations as something high stakes with a lot on the line- That may be true, is that helping us? If I [00:07:00] think about this as a super high-stakes situation and I don’t have the emotional intelligence to manage that emotionality, then the story is actually causing significant challenges to me. So for the person who’s listening, I want you to start to develop the skill of rewriting your story about the conversation that’s coming up. What is this really about? What am I trying to do? And one of the skills is focus. W- when we think about focus, we only think about what it means in terms of paying attention to something. But when you think about the true masters at craft, they– it’s not just about focusing on what they’re paying attention to, it’s also about understanding what you’re strategically choosing to ignore. So they did a study on chess grandmasters, and they– we know they think many moves in advance, but the reality is that they’re only considering legitimate moves.

 

Kwame Christian: They have the instincts to understand what moves to not even consider. one of the number one skills that we have to develop, especially as folks who might be high-achieving overthinkers [00:08:00] recognizing when that thinking, the depth of thought that we have, is actually doing us a disservice, and, and trying to steer those thoughts into a different direction. Now, that was a little, a little side quest that you inspired, so thank you for helping to deepen my thought leadership. and now let’s bring it back to the actual question, the core skills. So for me, having the podcast for ten years, eighteen hundred episodes, I’ve had the brightest minds in negotiation and communication come on the show, like you, my friend have come on multiple times. And what I’ve found is that there are two discoveries, two skill– two things that I’ve discovered about all elite communicators and great negotiators. So discovery number one: all of these folks adapt and flow. They don’t go into the conversation with a rigid script. They embrace surprise, they trust their skills, and they believe that they can keep the conversation moving in a productive direction, and they’re willing to take necessary detours to make sure that happens. And then discovery number two [00:09:00] is that you only need three core skills to be a great negotiator: become better at listening, become better at curiosity, and become better at managing your emotions, both yours and the other side’s. And you could spend the rest of your life deepening your skill set on those three elements.

 

Kwame Christian: And when you think about what a tactic or strategy is, it’s usually one of those three th- things put in combination and utilized at the right time. And so when you have those skills and you can put them at, in, into play when it matters, then you’re gonna be in a good position, and you don’t need anything more than that.

 

Melody Wilding: Mm-hmm. Okay, we are definitely going to come back to the managing emotions, yours and other people’s piece. I wanna get into, some more tactical questions around negotiation, because you, you had brought up the example with a direct report, and I think it’s really interesting because if we think about negotiation, you’re always doing it in the workplace up, down, and sideways, right?

 

Melody Wilding: To, to your team, to your colleagues, to your superiors. [00:10:00] Now, of course, you know my book, Managing Up, and a lot of the people who are listening to this show are interested in upward influence. So what should we be keeping in mind specifically when we’re in a negotiation or a conversation, let’s just talk, let’s just say, with someone who does have more positional authority than us?

 

Melody Wilding: They want something, we want something, right? We, we may have certain preferences, they may have certain demands or requests. Are there, are there certain nuances or things that we should have top of mind when you have those unequal power dynamics in a negotiation?

 

Kwame Christian: Yes. So first of all, the number one thing you need to do in your preparation is read Managing Up. That’s the first

 

Melody Wilding: I did not pay you to say that, by the way.

 

Kwame Christian: second thing is we have to have realistic expectations here, and I think it’s important to also voice those expectations [00:11:00] to other people too. So when we’re having the conversation with the person, before we have it, actually, we should say, “Here’s my goal.

 

Kwame Christian: This is where I want to go, and this is how I’m going to try to go about getting it.” And at the same time, recognize that they have the power to do whatever they want, and I– it is only my responsibility to do the very best I can and accept the consequences of, of wherever the conversation goes, right? So coming into the conversation, I would say those things.

 

Kwame Christian: So let’s say you’re my manager. I’d say, “So Melody, thank you for having the conversation with me. I really appreciate it. I’ve been doing some research about the project. I’ve got some thoughts, and I also recognize that you’re the person who has the power and authority to make something happen. So whatever you choose, I respect that, and, and my goal here is to just give you some insight that you can consider, and whatever you choose to do, I, I will execute with full, full zeal enthusiasm.” And so what we’re doing here is we’re taking a step back– Oh, this is great. I could [00:12:00] talk,nerdy about psychology. This is, this is so good. because when it comes to this, when you think about the different types of personalities that people have and different motivations folks have, and in the psychology of personality, we think about people who are motivated by power. people who are motivated by power often have high degrees of upward mobility. Not surprising, you’re gonna see them in managerial positions, those type of things. The other thing about people who have a lot of power is that they’re very sensitive to threats to that authority, and if they don’t feel as though you understand or respect or acknowledge that power, then they’re gonna feel the subconscious need to flex that power on you so you recognize it. So what we wanna do is snipe that right at the front. So think about when it comes to, emotion management, one of the keys is emotional labeling. So label the emotion. We understand with affect labeling that tra– that activates the frontal lobe, which quiets the amygdala and limbic, limbic system so people can have higher level conversations and think clearly and be less emotional.

 

Kwame Christian: We recognize that. [00:13:00] But we only think about utilizing that tool as it relates to flagrantly negative emotions. Anger, frustration, sadness, annoyance, m- being melancholy, whatever it happens to be. There’s a, a wide variety of things that we could discuss there. But ego is tantamount to an emotion, and if we don’t validate that, then it becomes inflamed and becomes a problem in the conversation. So I will label and, and acknowledge and validate the person’s ego, while at the same time not putting myself at an unduly subordinate position. So after I say, “Hey, you have the authority, my goal is to help,” and I’m going to say one sentence to validate me in this in- interaction as well. I’ve been working on this project for the last six months, and I’ve gathered a lot of data, and I’ve found some really surprising things.

 

Kwame Christian: So I just wanted to share that with you.” Oh, what did we do here? I just told you in a very nice non-threatening way, “Listen, I know things you don’t know.”

 

Melody Wilding: Mm-hmm. Yeah

 

Kwame Christian: “And if you don’t [00:14:00] listen to me, you might make a bad decision, and that’s gonna be on you. You don’t want that.” Of course, I say that subconsciously. know, it is, it is the undertone of what I’m saying. But you see, you check those two boxes early on. I’m gonna let you know that I respect your authority. “Hey, I see you. You have the power. I respect that,” and I also have value, and now we can con- begin the conversation

 

Melody Wilding: Oh man, this is, this is so good, and I love, I, I love talking about this. The word that kept coming to mind for me is, is status, right? Protecting, protecting their feeling of status that, to your point, they have worked hard to earn. And also at their level, there is so much more of a drive or a need to protect perception and reputation.

 

Melody Wilding: And so it’s almost practicing this, this level of empathy for your counterpart in a negotiation, understanding what are their motivations, what are they trying to protect. And I love what you said, and you know this is my philosophy too, right? To, to manage [00:15:00] up, we do not need to make ourselves smaller or continue to subordinate ourselves.

 

Melody Wilding: We do have to be mindful of the power dynamics, but what I heard is you presenting, you coming with an appropriate amount of, “This is my status, and this is how I can use my unique vantage point to actually enhance yours, to get you a better outcome, to make you look good,” which is a brilliant way to approach it.

 

Melody Wilding: Would you say that that’s a, that’s a fair breakdown?

 

Kwame Christian: To the person listening, do you see why over one million people have gone through Melody’s courses? Do you see this? Just dripping in brilliance in everything that you said.

 

Melody Wilding: Oh, you are… I need, I need you as like my, my Johnny Carson sidekick on this show all the time. Oh my gosh.

 

Kwame Christian: my friends. That’s

 

Melody Wilding: That’s right. That’s right. Likewise

 

Kwame Christian: I think that’s one of the, the most overlooked components of communication. We, how many times have you read a book on negotiation or communication that [00:16:00] explicitly talked about status, the, the actual psychological sophistication of status? And when you think about it too, let’s put ourselves in the mind of the other side because when we’re using empathy, again, we think about empathizing in terms of, oh, and from a compassionate perspective. “Oh, you’re feeling bad. I’m here for you,” that type of stuff. Empathy– When I use the term empathy as it relates to communication, I’m not thinking about the feeling, I’m thinking about the skill.

 

Kwame Christian: You don’t need to feel empathetic to utilize the skill of empathy, and all I’m trying to do is understand how they see, think, and feel about the situation. So I call it the three dimensions of understanding. What is your perspective? How are you seeing this? what are your feelings about it? What are your emotions?

 

Kwame Christian: And then also, what do you think about it? Now, here’s the important thing about the thoughts. if you say one plus one equals three, in order for me to be empathetic, what I would say is, “So Melody, from what I’m hearing is that from your perspective, plus one equals three. Is that right? Okay. [00:17:00] Based on the description that you gave me and your lived experience and everything that you said, I can understand how you believe one plus one equals three.”

 

Kwame Christian: Now, I’m, I’m not agreeing. I, I didn’t need to say that explicitly at that moment, right? But I want to reflect that understanding through the three dimensions of under-understanding, right? So if we layer status into that evaluation, we have to understand that either consciously or subconsciously, they are considering status with everything that they’re doing. Where is their status? Where is your status? And realistically, how high can your status ever be in their perspective within this context? You might have incredibly high status outside of the four walls of this organization. But in this, am the boss, and so you will always be beneath me. And so that helps us to d- to calibrate level of, being deferential while also making sure that we demonstrate our status without it being a threat to their status too. [00:18:00] So we’re respecting how they see themselves, how they see us, how they see the situation, and how they see their decision as being part of their status-building narrative. So whenever I’m trying to persuade somebody, I think about the status story. If there’s a specific outcome that I’m trying to get them to drive to, do I frame this in a way that helps them to see that making this decision is not just mutually beneficial and not just beneficial for the organization, but making this decision elevates your status? How do I frame it that way? And the only way I can do that is if I really dig deeply and understand you with those three dimensions.

 

Melody Wilding: Yes. Yes. Okay. Let me, let me build on that, because a question I commonly get, and I always try to put myself in the listener’s shoes here, and these are people, and I know you work with people just like this too, who are, who are in very complex organizations, right? Many multinational, lots of matrices, and dotted [00:19:00] lines, and stakehol- stakeholders within and outside of the organization.

 

Melody Wilding: And the person they may end up negotiating with is someone who they do not get a lot of face time with, or a lot of interaction with, period. So, a lot of people will come to me and say, “I, I hear, and I have heard so many times, I need to understand their constraints and, their goals in order to have leverage and be able to, to make a proposal or come to a compromise.

 

Melody Wilding: But how do I do that when I don’t have a lot of direct access or exposure to them?” So,we talked about kind of a general idea of, of when you’re negotiating with powerful people, keeping ego, status in mind, which is, I think, a very helpful heuristic just to have in mind. But what, what do you tell people who are almost going into a negotiation without any ability to do some of that legwork or that background?

 

Kwame Christian: First of all, we have to acknowledge the difficulty of the [00:20:00] position. And, a lot of times we struggle in these conversations because we try to achieve a psychological impossibility. if my goal in that conversation– let’s say it’s a, a, a big project we’re working on. They already have a direction, and I need to completely change the direction one hundred percent. So I need the person to– I wanna try to get the person to like me, trust me, and make a potentially career-altering decision that is vastly different from what they expected in, in twenty-five minutes. no one can do that. No one can do it. And so if we start aiming at a target that is unhittable, then w- it makes no sense for us to get upset about the fact that we didn’t achieve the goal.

 

Kwame Christian: The goal was the problem. So we have to have a manageable goal in this situation. So g- let’s just say gold standard. Once you recognize that there is the pers– the possibility of having a meaningful conversation, a conversation of consequence with someone, the second [00:21:00] they get on your radar, book a meeting.

 

Kwame Christian: Not a long meeting. Just, “Hey, fifteen minutes. I, you got on my radar. I see we might work together. Just wanted to get to know you real quick.” That’s it. No agenda, no nothing. But w- thinking about negotiation as, any conversation where somebody wants something, all I want in that confirmation– conversation is to get a little bit of trust. I wanna get a little bit of warmth, maybe a little bit of information about what is important to you, and that is it. That’s it. So that’s the gold standard. Just remember, trust is gained in drips, lost in buckets. So we wanna get a few of more of those drips before the conversation. Now, getting into this actual conversation, let’s say, “Cool, Kwame.

 

Kwame Christian: Well, the meeting’s tomorrow. What am I gonna do?” So here, here’s how we handle this. So for me, what I wanna do is if we have a forty-five-minute meeting, I’m gonna spend the first ten to fifteen minutes just trying to get you to like me. That’s it. That’s it. That, that’s the goal.

 

Kwame Christian: I had Gary Noesner on the [00:22:00] podcast. He was one of the lead negotiators for the, the Waco, Texas, hostage situation. And I asked him, “What is something that all negotiators, all great negotiators have in common?” And he said, “They’re all likable.” They’re all likable. Who wants to give a deal to somebody that they don’t like, right? So here’s my thing, and this is– Do not– Just promise me, Melody and other people, you’re not gonna clip me inappropriately with this, okay? equity is a, is an admirable goal. Seeking equality is an admirable goal. All people have equal value.

 

Kwame Christian: Can we stipulate to those things? I think we can. Okay. Now, understanding psychology, that’s not possible. The only way to get through– get rid of biases is by perishing. brain that doesn’t have bias is one that is not currently on. So here’s the thing, there is no way to play for neutrality. So for me, I’m always playing for advantage.

 

Kwame Christian: If I’m [00:23:00] having a negotiation with somebody, I don’t want you to make an objective decision. I want you to like me a lot treat me very favorably. That’s– why, why wouldn’t I?

 

Melody Wilding: Mm-hmm.

 

Kwame Christian: per the rules of psychology, those are the options. It’s either positive or negative. There’s no neutrality, so I’m gonna always tip toward the positive.

 

Kwame Christian: So the first five, ten to fifteen minutes, I have no agenda. All I want to do is to get to know you as deeply as you’re willing to share comfortably, and then the– we’re playing this game. We– the thing is, again, bias isn’t bad. Bias is just a subconscious preference towards something or a subconscious prejudice against something.

 

Kwame Christian: That is it. That, that, that’s all it is in reality. So I want to intentionally trigger affinity bias, which as it relates to diversity, equity, and inclusion, is very problematic in a global sense as it relates to whole organization. You see how I’m always… I’m covering my bases. I’m a lawyer, I’m covering my bases. But as it relates to each human [00:24:00] interaction, I’m going to leverage affinity bias as much as possible. So all it is, again, I like you because you are like me. So as I am asking these questions and I’m getting you the opportunity to talk about things that you like, things that are important to you, the things that make your heart sing, that’s what I’m looking for. And then I am going to share elements of myself that are the same or similar, that’s it. I’m just constantly looking for that, and that’s all I’m doing. And so we think too tactically and strategically because what ends up happening is we have a very clear agenda on what it is that we want, and we start to persuade too soon.

 

Kwame Christian: We have to earn the right to persuade. And so if you start off with this agenda and you– whether or not you’re, you bring it to the fore or it’s a hidden agenda, people are going to subconsciously s-sense that you’re angling towards something. They don’t know you well enough to trust you to steer the ship in a direction that is not detrimental to them. And so even if you’re using named tactics and strategies and [00:25:00] using them just like the textbook would say, that would be ultimately detrimental to your persuasive endeavors because the person doesn’t like or trust you yet. That’s

 

Melody Wilding: I, I I appreciate you being so real and honest about this, because this is what we need. This is what people need to hear. The work world operates on relationships and social capital, and if you don’t have that, you are SOL. You are up a creek, and as you said, you know, it, it reminds me of, of selling, right?

 

Melody Wilding: There’s a lot of parallels between negotiation and selling. If you’re trying to sell a product, you could tell me it has all these great features, how fast it works, how much better it is, but if I am not sold on liking you and your company and the reason why I even have a problem, n- it doesn’t matter, all of the features.

 

Melody Wilding: And so I think, it, the emotional side of negotiation gets really neglected for the [00:26:00] tactical side of how do I make my case? How do I, I make sure I rebut what, what they say and have, you know, my best alternative to the agreement ready? And as you said, so much of it is that upfront work of rapport building that smooths the rest of the track.

 

Melody Wilding: Yeah

 

Kwame Christian: it. That’s it. And here’s the thing. We– You can’t convince anybody of anything. You can only create the conditions that allow them to convince themselves. That’s it. And for me, when I think about negotiation, it’s not the art of deal-making, it’s the art of deal discovery. My goal is to have a conversation with you.

 

Kwame Christian: We’re gonna work together to see if a deal– if there is a deal to be made. And if there is, fantastic, we’ll find it. If there’s not, then no harm, no foul, we’re still good because I still find value in the, the strength and the warmth of the relationship itself. And when you think about this, everything that we’ve talked about will help you to position yourself extremely well in the conversation. That’s, that’s goal number one. But when you think about what your reputation is, [00:27:00] it is nothing but a constellation of conversations that you’ve had with other people within the organization. And so if you keep on creating these warm interactions with people, even if you don’t get exactly what you want in this specific conversation, you’re positioning yourself so much better for the next conversations.

 

Kwame Christian: It’s, it’s, it’s a never-ending just string of conversations. And when you think about it that way, it also takes pressure off of you to win at all costs in one interaction.

 

Melody Wilding: Abso- absolutely, yes, and so many people, I call that conversational perfectionism, where we, we build up like, “Oh gosh, I only have this one chance to get in front of the VP and sell them on this idea,” and we put so much stock into that, that you were saying this before, then you freeze, right? And you become paralyzed, but when you think of it as a series or portfolio, almost like a bell curve of interactions, yes, you’ll have some on the outliers which are really bad and really good, but most of them are contributing to this sort of [00:28:00] average overall perception people have of you and your reputation.

 

Melody Wilding: So okay, I, I do wanna talk about managing emotions,

 

Kwame Christian: Yes

 

Melody Wilding: and particularly your own because what a lot of people will say to me is, “I go in with the best intentions. I go in with my plan. Person throws me a curve ball, it’s all out the window. I start rambling, I lose my train of thought, I- my mind goes blank.” So what, what do you do when you feel caught, that deer in headlights, you feel like you’ve just been totally thrown for a loop?

 

Melody Wilding: How do you regain your composure, either if you have internal techniques or externally in terms of what you say? What do you do?

 

Kwame Christian: So a couple of things. So I’ll answer the question directly, and then I’ll also give a, a little caveat here because if you do your homework beforehand, you might not find yourself in this situation. So number one, whenever I’m at, at work having these types of conversations, I like to have a notepad. I’m [00:29:00] always taking notes. And then let’s say somebody says something that triggers me, that frustrates me, that catches me off guard, and I’m, I’m l- I’m losing it Like I could tell, I could tell this moment, not at my best. Cortisol is flooding my system. I’m not thinking clearly, whatever it happens to be. Okay, fantastic. So here’s what I’d say.

 

Kwame Christian: This is what my freak out would look like in person. so I’d say, “So Melody, you mentioned a lot of really great things. You mind if you– Can I just have a couple seconds to take some notes?” And so I’ll sit here and take some notes, okay? And people will give you ten to fifteen seconds of silence to just take notes. And a lot of times I am not even writing words, Melody I, I am not. I am sitting here– I might turn it into a tactile meditation,

 

Melody Wilding: Mm-hmm.

 

Kwame Christian: taking the, the moment and take– doing some box breathing, something like that, slowing my s- my system down, so triggering the paras- parasympathetic nervous system. That’s gonna be important.

 

Kwame Christian: But then also I have the, the compassionate curiosity framework. You– That’s my mental model for having tough conversations, but it’s [00:30:00] designed not only for the external conversation with the other person, but the internal negotiation with yourself so you can manage your own emotions. Same framework. So step number one, I’m gonna acknowledge and validate my own emotions.

 

Kwame Christian: What am I feeling? So let’s say I say I’m feeling angry. Well, we know anger is a secondary emotion, not a primary emotion. What else are you feeling? It’s usually a, a, an emotional cocktail, and the more precise we get, the more we trigger the frontal lobe because the part of the brain that accepts or rejects the label is in the frontal lobe.

 

Kwame Christian: That’s why it quiet- quiets the amygdala. So then once we start to calm down, we say, “Well, why do I feel this way?” Well, I feel disrespected. Okay, what else? Well, I feel a, a little bit surprised at the approach. Okay, what else? I, I understand that. Okay, now step number three is using joint problem-solving. So internally, what we’re trying to do is figure out what we need to do as our next move.

 

Kwame Christian: So usually in the, the middle of a conversation, it would be coming back to the conversation with an open-ended question that steers the conversation in a positive direction because the person who’s asking the question is the person who’s steering the conversation. [00:31:00] So for me, I follow the seventy thirty rule in my negotiations where I want the other side to speak seventy percent of the time, only speaking thirty percent. It’s kinda like this podcast. I’m sitting here talking all the time. Who’s in control? This is you. So I would have my little panic, and then I’d s– do my little exercise and even go through this very quickly and then I’ll say, “Thank you. That w– Thank you for giving me the time to take those notes. This reminded me of a question.”

 

Kwame Christian: Boom. Open-ended question. Steer the conversation. Now What can we do beforehand to make sure we don’t find ourselves in this situation? So, there’s an exercise that I, I give my clients called focused catastrophizing. So if I’m gonna freak out before a pi– a conversation, cool, I give myself full license to freak out.

 

Kwame Christian: We just need to do it in an organized way. And you might be panicking about a conversation for days, weeks, or months, but what’s interesting is once you go through this focused catastrophizing exercise and list out all of those things, you realize that it is not necessarily that there are so many things that you’re afraid of.

 

Kwame Christian: It might be five to eight things, but they [00:32:00] recycle and remix through your mind. And so when it comes to confidence, people misunderstand it. When it comes to confidence, it’s not that you feel like you’re walking on sunshine all the time. With confidence, the baseline level of confidence we need is that regardless of what happens, I will find a way to be okay. And with each of those fears, I’m gonna find a way to be okay. And if you want an added bonus, we’re going to re– we are going to give a new story for the interactions or the things that they could do that scare you the most. So with one of my clients, I– we created a game called Frustration Bingo. so, and so she’s an, she’s an engineer, and she is, the youngest and, like, the only woman on her team, and so she’s running this meeting.

 

Kwame Christian: She’s feeling disrespected. She’s feeling like people aren’t listening. There’s side chatter happening. And so I said, “Okay, so first of all, we’re gonna have a solution for every situation. You’re gonna know what you’re gonna do in those situations. But on the side, I want you to have Frustration Bingo, and our goal is to get bingo.”

 

Kwame Christian: So we [00:33:00] renegotiate our relationship with our fear. So I’m not trying to run away from it. I’m embracing it. So now when that happens, those same things that triggered her in the past, now she just smirks and says, “Of course, of course he would interrupt at this– Of course. There. Check.” And so it does– So she’s not thrown off gu- off, off base. And that’s one thing I recognize with emotional intelligence because we often think about it in terms of catching the emotion and getting back to baseline after the emotion has already sparked. We don’t think about what causes the emotion, which is often a, an unnecessarily disempowering story. And with life, it will provide you with data, evidence, experience.

 

Kwame Christian: And the way that I think about it is that none of those things are true or faul- false by themselves, but they are story fragments, and it’s my job to tell the most empowering story possible. And so if I can come up with a disempowering story that makes me feel bad in the moment, I can also come up with a more empowering story on the same data that makes me feel better. And so that’s a way that you can kinda [00:34:00] short-circuit the, the emotional breakdown before it happens. Now you don’t need to catch yourself and gather yourself because you’ve already done such a good job of putting yourself in a, a state of emotional resilience and strength.

 

Melody Wilding: Yes. Oh my gosh. The anticipation, like you were saying, the, just the anticipate that it’s going to happen, and I, whenever I, I hate having hard conversations. Hate it. I know people say that. I will avoid it like the plague, and, you know, the more you get into a leadership role as you’re running your own company, the more difficult conversations you need to have.

 

Melody Wilding: And I am always having to remind myself, no conversation has killed me so far. So that, maybe that’s not the most optimistic resilience story, but it helps me, that no matter what it reminds me of, I will come out on the other side of this, even if it’s not exactly how I hoped or, or how I imagined. I will come out on the other side of it one way or the other.

 

Melody Wilding: So

 

Kwame Christian: I’ve got something for you, Melody,

 

Melody Wilding: yeah.

 

Kwame Christian: play, play a

 

Melody Wilding: Yeah

 

Kwame Christian: with me here. So I, I [00:35:00] like this because we can weave a negotiation lesson into this

 

Melody Wilding: Yeah

 

Kwame Christian: potentially maybe changing your mind on

 

Melody Wilding: Hmm.

 

Kwame Christian: So one of the things that I like to do when it comes to getting people to consider something creatively that might be scary is I use a hypothetical.

 

Melody Wilding: Mm-hmm.

 

Kwame Christian: people are more willing to play around with a fantasy world than they are with wrestling with reality ’cause

 

Melody Wilding: Mm-hmm.

 

Kwame Christian: feels like they’re committing to it. So if I say, “Hey, does this work for you?” no.” But if I say, “So hypothetically, and I’m not going to, I’m not gonna commit you to anything that you say. If we were to try to make this proposal work, what would, what would need to be true for it to work for you?”

 

Melody Wilding: Hmm.

 

Kwame Christian: Okay? So that’s the tactic. So listeners, watch what I’m gonna do. So hypothetically, if you were to love hard conversations, would need to be true for that to be true?

 

Melody Wilding: It’s, it’s something that is not possible, which is I want the other person to respond in [00:36:00] a favorable way. That is, and I recognize that’s my own stuff to work through, that’s what’s going to make me feel most safe, is if the other person is accepting or onb- ideal is on board right away. Second best to that is at least not, pushing back with a ton of animosity or anger or, how could you?

 

Melody Wilding: You know, how, how dare you?

 

Kwame Christian: Yes. Okay, got you. So this– that makes complete sense. ‘Cause remember, I– actually, I didn’t say this, your audience probably doesn’t know. They might say, “Oh, this Kwame guy is super confident.” Listen, I got into this because I was a people pleaser for

 

Melody Wilding: Mm-hmm. Yeah

 

Kwame Christian: So this is– I, I, I had to learn how to do this because I had this exact same fear. And so this is what I, I did mentally to, to shift it, because I blend a lot of philosophy, psychology, and everything into the negotiation, my methodology. So I think about it from the stoic mindset. What can we do to, to the controllables? Be– let’s be very clear about [00:37:00] what’s within our control and what’s outside of our control. Our– Their response to what it is that we say or do is completely outside of the control.

 

Melody Wilding: Mm-hmm.

 

Kwame Christian: for me, I like to feel like a winner. So I– my, my, my rule is I only play winnable games, and the only games that are winnable are the ones that are fully within my control. And so I say, “Okay, cool.” I’ll, I’ll set different goals, and I’ll say– and what I’ll start to do is start to hope for the thing that I fear the most, so I could attack the fear. So if I’m having a conversation, and I s- feel myself say, “Oh, I hope they say this. I really want them to say that. I hope they don’t push back in a, an aggressive way.” I say, “Okay, cool, Kwame, game on. Now we have a target.” So I’m gonna focus, catastrophize this. I’m gonna find a way to be okay, and then I am going to hope that they have this horrible conver- this, this horrible response, so I can showcase the skills that I just prepped for.

 

Melody Wilding: No

 

Kwame Christian: so then what ends up happening is the conversation always [00:38:00] goes so much better than I

 

Melody Wilding: Yeah. Yep. Yep

 

Kwame Christian: like all these positive delusions I create.

 

Melody Wilding: I, I love that. I love that idea of winnable games. I, because I am the same way, ve- and I think many people are very competitive, and competitive in the sense of you always wanna be what you know you are capable of at, at your best. And so I love that idea of almost playing that, that little trick with yourself to make it a winnable game.

 

Melody Wilding: Kwame, this has been just so mind-blowingly valuable. I love it because so many of the conversations out there about negotiation are about the, I don’t wanna say basics, but are about the baseline tactics of, okay, how should I look up salary information before I go to my boss? And this was really about the psychology and the human behavior driving each of these conversations.

 

Melody Wilding: So it is just so rich, it is so [00:39:00] nuanced for the people who are listening, who are many at a very different level, where these conversations have so many layers of complexities and emotions and ascent- incentives behind them. You have given us so much to chew on. You have a ton going on. You were mentioning the podcast, which I did see today on social media, just celebrated its 10-year anniversary, but tell people what you have going on, where can they work with you, find you?

 

Kwame Christian: Yes. Okay, so this what you saw, thank you for 10 years, this is– there’s an element of myself that is a lovable troll. This is a setup, and I’m gonna let people know that I am ending the show after ten years, eighteen hundred episodes, w-we are done with Negotiate Anything. so what’s exciting though is that it’s going to propel us to, to launch a new show. So I’ve been demoing this, this new mentality. I didn’t make it public until s- just recently started to talk about it, and it’s a mentality [00:40:00] I call Big Swings Only. So there are two philosophical bases. So number one, if you have the mindset and skill set to hit the ball out of the park, the only thing that holds you back is whether or not you’re willing to take a big swing. So I started swinging bigger on everything, and, and things started to really take off. Okay, interesting.

 

Melody Wilding: Well

 

Kwame Christian: one is Michelangelo carving the statue of David. Yes, he said that “I didn’t carve the statue of David. I just removed what was superfluous and unnecessary.” And so I think about the other metaphor as h-having the, the hammer and the chisel, and you’re chiseling yourself.

 

Kwame Christian: It’s about building yourself. So it’s not even about the outcome, it’s about who you become as a result of taking these big swings. So the, the new podcast is Big Swings Only.

 

Melody Wilding: Love it. Love it.

 

Kwame Christian: for that

 

Melody Wilding: Fantastic. So excited for that. That is, it is, it has so much energy and emotion to our topic, big topic for today. It has so much energy and emotion behind [00:41:00] it, and is so you. And, you know, I have said this to you, like, you have been on fire, and now I know why. You are living, you are breathing that mentality for the last year, 18 months plus.

 

Melody Wilding: And, and all anyone needs to do is go look you up on social media

 

Kwame Christian: Yeah

 

Melody Wilding: see the evidence of that. You on every top podcast. You are just crushing it out there. So you are, you are an example of this, my friend. and so people can find that on, on any podcast app, I assume.

 

Kwame Christian: Yep.

 

Melody Wilding: else you wanna send them?

 

Kwame Christian: Yeah, so check out my website. So we do keynotes, trainings, and, we have a course library, and an AI, Kwame AI, that is equal parts helpful and creepy. Creepy only for me, because it, it cloned my voice, and it’s, it’s– The way I describe it is that it has– it is me, but with perfect memory and less charisma. And, and it’s great because there, there are a handful of people that I still coach. I don’t have the capacity to coach very much anymore. [00:42:00] But, when I would chat with them recently, they’ve been saying, “Kwame AI said the exact same thing.” I was like, “Oh, that’s great.” now I’m getting jealous

 

Melody Wilding: Yeah.

 

Kwame Christian: AI clone. I tell you, it’s, it’s really good. I use it

 

Melody Wilding: Cool.

 

Kwame Christian: content.

 

Melody Wilding: Anocha

 

Kwame Christian: but it’s, it’s fun. So those are the things that we’re working on. I’m, I’m very excited for this year.

 

Melody Wilding: Awesome. Thank you so much for being here and, just, just giving us this gift of so much insight

 

Kwame Christian: My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.