Melody Wilding: If you have read my first book, Trust Yourself, you are familiar with the idea of the Sensitive Striver. Someone who feels things deeply, thinks carefully, and holds themselves to an exceptionally high standard. If you relate, you have probably been pushing yourself your entire life. You’ve achieved a lot, but you still can’t quite shake that feeling that there’s more.

There’s more to do, another mountain to climb, another accolade to achieve. That tension between having accomplished a lot but never feeling like you’ve arrived, that’s exactly what today’s conversation is about. My guest is Ryan Hawk. He’s host of The Learning Leader Show, which is a top-rated podcast with nearly 700 episodes.

I was also very honored to be a guest. He is also the author of the brand-new book, The Price of Becoming. Ryan went from being an elite college quarterback to grinding through years of corporate cold call sales to building one of the most respected leadership podcasts and brands in the world, which means he hasn’t just studied reinvention and how to sustain excellence from the outside.

He has navigated again and again the messy, unglamorous, deeply uncomfortable middle of it himself, the part where you’re not quite where you want to be, the results are not showing up yet, and you have to decide, “Do I keep going anyway?” That middle may be exactly where you are right now. Maybe you’re asking yourself whether the path you’re on is still the right one, whether the drive that got you here is enough to get you where you want to go next, whether the way you’ve been working, heads down, deliver results, is still the strategy that’s going to get you to the next level.

In this conversation, Ryan delivers insights on the question most high achievers and sensitive strivers never pause to answer for themselves. What do I do today to become the leader, the communicator, the professional I know I am capable of being? Not someday, not when things settle down. Today, in all of its messy imperfection.

We get into how curiosity can become a competitive advantage, why the people who achieve excellence over a long career are almost never the smartest people in the room, and the specific flywheel Ryan uses to turn everything he reads, hears, consumes into true behavior change, not just more information that never makes it off the page.

All right, here is Ryan.

Ryan, welcome. I am so thrilled to have you here on the podcast. I was on your show when Managing Up came out, so I am really excited to turn the tables today to talk about your new book, The Price of Becoming. And the first place I want to start is with your own becoming story. Tell, tell us about that, because I think the people listening are very high-achieving. They have been hard on themselves their entire lives, and you have somewhat of a similar story with a lot of those threads. So let’s start there.

Ryan Hawk: Yeah. Well, th- first, thank you for having me. It’s really cool. Uh, when I saw that this was an opportunity, I was like, “Of course, I’d love to be able to talk to Melody, some more.” So, um, the, the, the fun part about it is it’s, it’s like we’re right in the middle of it. That’s the whole ethos of, of this mentality of living, is you’ve never arrived, you’re always becoming.

And so I like this idea of regardless of what we’ve done, uh, good or bad, we’re still gonna keep working through that. This, this, this idea of, endurance is better than brilliance, at least for me, unless you’re born brilliant. Uh, for the rest of us, though, we have to, uh, get up and endure and be consistent every day.

So yeah, whether it’s stems from my athletic career and the ups and downs of that, or my sales career in corporate America f- that I did for 12 years before all of this, there’s ups and down there, or starting a podcast 11 years ago in the early days and figuring that out and building a business and leaving corporate America. There’s a lot of different kind of becoming moments that, yeah, you never quite arrive. You’re just always willing to get up each day. I’m happy to dive into any of those areas that you think are interesting. Uh, but there, there, there are a few different ones that, I would say I’ve, I’ve faced and, or currently still working through as we speak.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. L- let’s talk about you navigating your time in corporate America and ultimately deciding to leave. Because, uh, I, of course, I think that’s what many people here can relate to, but I’m sure it has many similarities of even when you were an athlete, you know, you, you had to transition from becoming a very top-tier elite athlete to then becoming someone else, and there’s, there’s identity, there’s loss, there’s excitement, there, there’s so much that comes with that.

So ta- take us back there. What did you learn from that specific transition when it comes to this idea of you have not arrived, you are always becoming?

Ryan Hawk: Yeah. Well, first of all, I vividly remember my senior day in college at Ohio University, what I thought was gonna be my last, football game as a quarterback, of that team. Both of my parents were there, which was rare because my brother and I played in college at the same time, so every week they would, they would have to split up, and my mom would go to the closest game to our home, and my dad would go to the furthest game away.

But both of them were there, which was the first time that that happened. I looked at them, they announced my name, we walk out, and I just cannot stop crying. Uh, it was so embarrassing. Um, I didn’t know… I, I mean, I had an understanding of why, right? I was sad that it was ending, I could not stop. Even as the game got it started, I was jogging out for the first series with tears in my eyes. Uh, fortunately, I actually started the game really, really well and then kind of fell apart. Um, and then was, uh, I, I lost it after the game. My whole family was there and it was… Anyway, it was embarrassing. I, I c- I think about that because, like, you lose your whole sense of self because I’ve been doing it for almost 20 years. Um, and then they tell you, like, “Okay, you’re not gonna do this anymore.” And so what was helpful when I moved to corporate America was I got hired by a family friend named Rex Caswell, and he cared for me deeply because he was friends with my dad, and he kinda took a shot on me ’cause he’d known me since I was a little kid. But one of the things that he helped me that has changed my life that I still do to this day was, I said, “Rex, I have no idea.” I was a sales job at a telephonic, uh, new business cold-calling sales job. I said, “Rex, I have no– I don’t know how to sell anything. I’ve never had a real job in my life. I’ve only had manual labor jobs.” he goes, “Here’s what we’re gonna do. Here’s the stack rankings from, from last year. You’re gonna sit with these 10 people, the 10 people at the top, I’m gonna hand you these questions, and you’re just gonna ask them these questions. Just write down everything they say. Okay? You’re gonna study excellence and then do what they say.”

I go, “Okay. I mean, I, I think I can do that,” right? I’m coachable. I played sports and all this. And so, um, that kinda helped me. Like it made me feel a little bit more like my playing days. I certainly wasn’t playing anything. It was more mental than physical. There were no real physical elements other than dialing the phone and talking to people. But I, I really learned the value of studying excellence, of figuring out how the best of the best do things, and then kinda mashing that together with my personality, and it was a very competitive environment. They had stack rankings listed every single day, activity metrics, as well as sales performance.

And so you could compete in a wide va- variety of things every day, and then they had circle of excellence at the end of the year where they called your name up on stage. And I remember that first year, I was only there half a year, so I, I d- I, I d- I couldn’t qualify to do it. But the next year when I won it, it was, like, the greatest feeling of all time.

So anyway, I, I would say, like, I leaned a little bit back on my earlier days, uh, at least the, the cool parts of being competitive, and then I, I learned from Rex the value of studying excellence and then trying to incorporate that into my life. And that’s what I’ve continued to, to do to this day, and eventually, you know, left corporate America because this is what I do for a living, is interview people who sustain excellence over an extended period of time, like you, um, 690 of them now over the course of, 11 years, and try to institute that and experiment with those things I’ve learned into my own life, uh, to better me as a leader as well as others as I’m sharing everything I’m doing along the way.

And, and that’s been kinda like the coolest… It wasn’t a job, you know? When I was coming, I ca- th- this thing I’m doing wasn’t a real thing. It wasn’t a job. And to now this is how I take care of my family and have teammates and coaches on my team, I would’ve never even thought this was possible.

So it,

Melody Wilding: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: cool that this is, like, actually what we’re doing.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. And, and what, what I really love about this, what stands out to me is there are so many times in our lives where we may tell ourselves, “I’m, I’m not an athlete. There are just people who are natural salespeople, and that’s not me, and people who are fit to do a podcast ’cause they already have a big network of people are going…

who are going to come on their show.” And I think what is so interesting and important about your approach and really what the entire book, the whole philosophy is, is reverse engineering behaviors, behaviors around success, because that can be studied. That can be broken down. And this is something even in my programs, you know, I work with a lot of folks who are listening mid and senior level who see these other people that have this executive presence or this articulation, and they think, “I could never be like that.”

When in actuality, if you study it, if we break it down, what looks like excellence on the outside is just internalized behaviors and structures. So I, I love that you have, for yourself and now for others, you have made success learnable and graspable for them, which is so important. Now, in the book, you, uh, you talk about…

And even here, we were mentioning, we were throwing around like high performance and drive. There’s this intensity behind it. Discipline, before you and I started recording, we were talking about discipline, especially around your, your book launch and how you’re approaching that. And that’s how we typically think about high performance.

But what– As I was going through the book, actually something that surprised me was the elements you bring up and you break down as some of those behaviors in the book are what we might consider the, quote-unquote, “softer side” of high performance. Can you break down what those elements are and why you picked, I believe there’s five, why you picked those five out of everything?

Ryan Hawk: Yeah, as I kind of hinted at it before, so, um, I think consistency will beat intensity. I think endurance will beat brilliance. I think curiosity is potentially the most important skill you can develop. go a little bit deeper on that one specifically because I think it’s what’s changed my life, and it’s been a learnable skill.

I did not grow up a curious person. I don’t know if you did. You feel like maybe you did or you, you definitely are now, but I wonder, because some people do. I did not. Um, I think what happens though is if you focus on showing up every day being a curious person, asking yourself the question, “What can I…” This is Charlie Munger. “What can I do today to go to bed a little bit wiser than I was when I woke up?” And then chase down that curiosity. Who can I talk to? What books can I read? What podcasts can I listen to? What TED Talks can I watch, right? What mentors can I meet with and, and, and show up prepared and ask good questions and then be a really good listener and ask even better follow-up questions, and then follow up with them afterwards to maintain and continue that relationship. And so to me, curiosity, I know there’s five different love languages, but But, uh, I don’t know where my love language would fall within those acts of service or gifts or any of that, but my love language, Melody, is curiosity. It’s how I give and receive love. And I think it’s a, an incredible way to show respect, an incredible way to build relationships, it’s an incredible way to go deep fast with people, and, and also is shockingly

Melody Wilding: Hmm. Hmm.

Ryan Hawk: know why. I don’t understand why, because once you get a taste of what happens in your life when you show up and you chase down that curiosity with great rigor, whether it’s about an idea or a topic, or it’s about having a fascination with a person and their story. And the latter, that has been, that has been life-changing for me, is the process of kind of preparing for these conversations I have, and then having the conversations and knowing that the best questions are almost always follow-up questions to go deeper. I think when you look at excellence, when you look at becoming, when you look at leadership and how to influence people… D- do this exercise now. Think of your least favorite boss, and think of your most favorite boss, okay? And when I do that, I think of, I…

So two of my most favorite bosses are Brian Miller and Dustin Kim. Kim was the last boss I had, uh, in corporate America when I worked at LexisNexis. She was Ivy League educated.

Melody Wilding: Hmm.

Ryan Hawk: But why do I actually love Dustin so much?

Well, now she had high competence, so I respected her level of intelligence and that she knew, she knew our business inside out. That was great. Why I actually really love her, though, is the way she handled our one-on-ones. And how curious she was about me as a person, about my family, about what I was interested in, about my career. She just cared about me. She was curious about me. She showed up in that way. Yes, she had the competence too, so, so we could get things done, and we did really, really well. But it’s like, when I think about all the people that I would run through a wall for or all the friends that I really wanna call to hang out with or I wanna invite to my book launch party, the curious ones. the ones who, like, care, ask questions, who listen, who ask follow-up questions. And so that’s why I think that skill, and I think it is a skill, so um, and rare. I, I don’t know. I, I’d be curious what you think in your career with the people you work with who are really, really good versus the ones who are just okay.

Uh, I would venture a guess that the ones who are really, really good and crushing it probably are more curious than the ones who aren’t.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. This, this is, this becomes so nuanced because, uh, I think in a job like you or I have, you’re more of a, a podcaster, you’re in conversations. I’m more in coaching and, and podcasting of course, but, you know, it’s part and parcel of our job to ask questions. It’s sort of baked into the expectation of, of what we do. And it… and what I find for people in the corporate world is there’s this tension between, “I need to look competent and have a point of view,”

Ryan Hawk: Mm-hmm.

Melody Wilding: also being curious. And what you were saying about your former boss really brought that to mind, that there is this balance between competence and curiosity.

So I’m curious how you, especially when, when you were in the full-time world or when you’ve seen CEOs or people do this very well, to command respect so that people don’t, don’t question, “Are they asking questions ’cause they really have no clue what,

Ryan Hawk: Yeah.

Melody Wilding: It gives them better intel? It’s how we go deeper. It’s how we’re building rapport.” Have you found anything around that nuance? ‘Cause that, that’s what comes up for me, is I think a lot of people are hesitant to ask too many questions because they don’t… They know they need to have a point of view, and they don’t wanna seem, uh, evasive sometimes, like they’re not answering a question.

Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: You’re right, you’re right, you’re right. The– It’s– I think it’s… The world, if, if you spend too much time online, the world, your viewpoint is the world is black and

Melody Wilding: Mm-hmm.

Ryan Hawk: It’s this or it’s that. But then you actually go live in the world, and it is almost never black and white. It is always very gray and very, very nuanced, and, uh, that’s why you bring up such a g- such a great point. Uh, I, I interviewed a CEO named BJ Czachnowski. I used to work with him, and we did some work after I left corporate America, and he’s, he’s still the CEO now. I remember asking him, like, this exact question, ’cause he’s a curious guy, but he’s also really, really smart. He’s like Dustin Kim. They actually had done some work together. And he goes Yeah, dude, you gotta know your stuff. Like, you better know your stuff. kind of the table stakes for being a great senior leader, meaning you’re prepped, you’ve done the work, you’re constantly learning, you’re studying, you’re, you’re ready for the meetings, so that when you get into a meeting with somebody or when you’re with another group of, of people, questions make sense, your questions are to genuinely learn and to go deeper.

You’re not, you’re not quizzing somebody, you’re not challenging them for the sake of challenging them. You’re following your genuine curiosity with great rigor. And I think if you show up being genuine and authentic, and you’re prepared, and you’ve done the work, and you know your stuff, that’s when the q- questions feel more real, feel more genuine, versus the one who maybe says, “Oh, wait, I read in this book that you should ask questions or be a curious person, so let me just come in here and just start asking random stuff that doesn’t make sense.” No, I mean, that… We, we’ve probably seen those people, too. Like, that is a disaster waiting to happen. I think you do have to be prepared, you do have to be competent, you do have to kn- know your stuff, so that when you get in the meeting or when you’re with others, your questions come from a genuine place of wanting to learn or wanting to go a little bit deeper on a specific topic.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s a great way to think about it, uh, that you have to work from that baseline of your, of your intelligence and, and your competence, what you bring to the table. Y- you also make an important point in the book that we n- need to have curiosity about ourselves.

Ryan Hawk: I

Melody Wilding: I wanna know from you, since you are someone who is, I mean, so immersed in personal and professional development, in your opinion, what are the best questions you are asking of yourself right now?

Ryan Hawk: think they’re, they’re de- dependent upon your core values and your purpose. So I’ll give you an example. Um, so one of my core values is… So my values are thoughtful, thankful, curious, and consistent, and one of my val- values is thankful, and the critical behavior that makes that value true for me is, is, it, that I have at least for me, is push your edges. Um, and so push your edges, like, what does that mean? That doesn’t mean anyone to anybody else, but it means something to me. To me, it means living on that thin line my comfort and competency zone and pushing it every single day, okay? And so the, the, a question to ask is, what specifically did I do today to push my edges? Okay? Write that down at the end of every night. What specifically did I do today to go to bed a little bit wiser than I was when I woke up, right? As I mentioned earlier. I’m a… I don’t know how you are as a writer when you’re writing books or getting ready for a talk or getting ready to coach. But I’m a prompt-driven thinker and a prompt-driven writer.

So like I’ll have my research assistant send me prompts, send me questions I can almost feel like I’m responding to an email if I’m stuck in the middle of a chapter or something like that. So I love prompts at the end of the day. So I think whether you build up your values, what you want to accomplish or your goals, and then those questions are in relation to those goals, to those values specifically to you, that if you answer enough of them in the affirmative every day, or you have specifics of what you’ve done, right?

Like Paul Rabel’s hundred shots a day. Did I get my hundred shots today? Right? No matter what, that was part of the rule for him that I write about in the book. Or there’s other ones like that. To me, what did I do to push my edges? Well, I had a conversation with Melody. I know she’s super smart. This is going to be a challenge for me to hang with somebody like this, right?

I interviewed a couple hours ago, Chris Voss, the negotiation guy. Hey, kind of tough. Push my edges. Got to be prepared. Got to be ready to go. Never know what he’s going to say. He’s a negotiation expert. Oh God, am I going to look like an idiot? You know, pushing my edges. Okay. How did I push my edges physically? What did I do in the gym? What was the type thing? So the point is like, what are those prompts for you? And I think it’s better if you come up with the prompts for yourself based on your purpose, your values, your goals. And then it’s all about stacking days, stacking day after, again, endurance beats brilliance, in my opinion. Consistency beats intensity, my opinion. So if you stack day after day after day after day of answering those prompts, like your chances. Like I like your chances of achieving those goals, of living out that purpose, of, of, of hitting whatever the goals that you’ve set for yourself. As long as you’ve done the work to understand what are the behaviors, the daily actions that it’s going to take in order to hit those goals.

When I was in corporate America, we had, you know, these big revenue targets. And so we had to break down, okay, what does the daily activity look like based on my skills and the historical data based on my performance of how many dials it’s going to take, many proposals I’m going to need to send, how many product demonstrations I’m going to need to do. All of those numbers, we knew them so that I could almost like scientifically systematize, this is how I’m going to be a circle of excellence performer. So I like to try to do that for your life, whatever it is. It’s not always like perfect math, but I think if you have those prompts, if you have those goals, if you are stacking day after day after day, that consistency, that, that ability to endure again, gives you a good chance to kind of be where you want to be versus just kind of waking up and hoping for the best.

And, and I think unfortunately like too many people, that’s what we do. And then you’re, you’re, you’re surprised or you’re upset when things aren’t working out, but it’s because you haven’t done anything intentionally to, to, to try to make it happen.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. Well, and to use those values as decision maker, decision-making filters, I think is so smart. Because then also, yes, at the end of the day, you’ve done something more measurable, but you’ve also done something that regardless of the outcome is important and meaningful to you and your integrity.

Because even if you pushed your edges and let’s say you didn’t get the response you hoped for, someone ghosts you or whatever it is, at least you can put your head on the pillow at night and say, “You know, I still made myself proud because that was my metric for success.” Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: Yeah, I mean, and it’s weird, these are all kind of like internal things within my control, right? These are behavior-based type activity goals essentially. Um, but y- that, that’s, that’s the key point i- is it, it, the people who are focused on what’s with- within their control on kind of activity-based goals that I do have control over, seem to actually get the best results too, right?

I- over the long term, over the long term. Now I was in s- and that’s part of this price. Uh, like it, this is what it takes. Th- m- I don’t know, like if you’ve helped people write books or start podcasts, but it’s become this kinda side thing. I don’t know if I’d say it’s for fun, but I do it because I think it’s, like people have helped me a lot, so you try to be helpful, right?

We all wanna pay it forward. What I see though is people start stuff because they get excited, I’ll even tell ’em, I’m like, “Look, it’s gonna get hard after, you know, whatever, three months, six months, a year. You, you may not get the external rewar- rewards that you’re hoping for, like a book deal or keynote speaking or, or a certain number of listeners or whatever.” If you’re, if you’re in this to do the thing, you’re curious about doing the actual thing of the act, meaning that’s like within your control and that’s internal, then you’re good. You’re, you’re good. You’re, you’re doing the thing. But if you’re in it for the external, the speaking gigs, the book deals, the consulting clients, whatever, you’re probably gonna quit because it gets really hard. a- and if you’re looking for that external thing, like I, I don’t like your chances of, of this thing sustaining over time versus saying, “No, the work actual win. The doing of the thing is the win.” And so I hope that people, not everybody has the luxury of having that kind of career or that life, but if you do, then I hope like the work you’re doing is the actual win and there isn’t some random outcome we’re looking for that is outside of your control because that makes it a lot harder for, uh, for, for you to, to, to sustain it over an extended period of time.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. Well, I know another one of the, um, stocks, quote-unquote, you talk about is resilience and

Ryan Hawk: Yeah.

Melody Wilding: I am always talking to my clients about, and this gets into the next question I wanna ask you, but I’m constantly talking to them about how you are going to find yourself in really difficult situations.

The reorg you don’t like. You have to work with that person you despise. The biggest client leaves at the most inconvenient time. That is going to happen. You get to choose, do you make this a meaningful struggle in terms of how it grows you, your character? Can you choose to see having to deal with that difficult colleague as, “All right, this is growing my negotiation chops and my, my ability to stay composed when someone triggers me,” for example.

But only you can make that meaning out of a situation that feels frustrating, that feels, um, helpless or even futile at times. So that, that’s part of what I hear you saying

Ryan Hawk: Yeah,

Melody Wilding: and…

Ryan Hawk: Go ahead, sorry.

Melody Wilding: No. Well, the next piece of this that, that I wanted to touch on is- You, you say something along the lines of how high performers do not just excel under ideal conditions.

That is so important because I think so many of us spend our time either waiting for ideal conditions to do something or trying to control and, and engineer and pull strings so that we create ideal conditions. So this feels very relevant right now at the time we’re recording this, where everyone, it is constant ambiguity, it is constant change and pivoting.

What do you find that it– is it that allows people to keep performing even when the conditions are, they are not fair, they are not predictable, they are not something you would choose or even enjoy?

Ryan Hawk: Yeah, it’s awesome. I learned this, uh, learned this from my friend Brooke Cupps, who I, who I, uh, co-wrote, uh, my third book with. And, um, he talked about this with the basketball team that he coaches during, uh, 2020, 2021, uh, all the COVID stuff going on where they were constantly getting shut down

Melody Wilding: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: Us, right? So no matter what happens, no matter what happens to us, it’s Advantage Us. I’ve stolen that. I borrowed that. Specifically when I think about, one of my pet peeves of the world, I’m getting to what you’re saying, but hopefully you’ll, you’ll see how I land a plane, or hopefully I do.

Maybe I won’t. Uh, we’ll see. Either way, one of my pet peeves in life is how parents to kids about weather. “Oh, you can’t go out. It’s bad weather. Can’t go outside. It’s bad weather out there.” Well, what do you mean it’s bad weather? It’s raining not bad or good, it just is. And so I’ve kind of taken the advantage us. And I remember driving, my daughter Charlie was eight years old at the time. We’re driving to soccer practice and it’s raining. And I said, “This is, this is awesome, Charlie. This is your advantage. Everyone’s gonna be complaining and whining that they’re getting dumped on with all this rain. This is when you excel.

This is when you make it happen. This is when you differentiate yourself I go, “Advantage us, advantage us,” and just try to like, saying it. And I remember, and she went out, had a good day, and she was laughing, enjoying. I mean, kids, you know, you can influence them, right? In a, in a way. I don’t think it’s brainwashing.

I mean, I was trying to like help her live through something, ’cause the weather is outside of our control. Parents say it’s bad, and so the kid just says, “Well, it’s bad. I don’t wanna do this.” Well, then the ga- a soccer game happens and it’s raining. They don’t cancel soccer games in the rain. If it’s lightning, they do.

But if it’s raining, they do not. she’s saying to me, “Advantage us,” and I have this great picture of her in her uniform scoring goals, winning a game in the rain when kids don’t like it. We had tryouts just a couple weeks ago for this next team. It started raining. Charlie, “Advantage us, advantage us.” And so I use the advantage us story because we don’t control the weather. control how we choose to respond to it. We don’t control the market. We don’t control if people are choosing to go to war or not. We choose how to respond to all of these things. And I think the best of the best, the people who sustain excellence over an extended period of time, are really good about controlling what they can control, and maybe they create some sort of ethos of how they handle situations others think it’s, quote, “bad out,” And, uh, and it’s just the best of the best don’t do that. They don’t make excuses. My friend Garren Stokes says, “Any excuse softens the character.” I think about that all the time. Hey, there’s a million excuses for why we couldn’t get it done. There’s a million excuses for why it didn’t work. It softens the character.

Is that too hardcore or crazy? I don’t know. Some people say it is when I s- when I mention that at keynotes. I don’t know. I choose to, to live by that way because I think it, I think it gives me a chance for things to go better for me and for my family and for the people that I love. And so thinking of whether it’s the weather and how you respond since you don’t have any control or the marketplace because you don’t have any control, do have control with how we respond to that and how we attack it, how we approach it, how we n- how we not make excuses, especially from a leadership position, uh, position, all the people that you’re talking about here. What we say has these, like, ripple effects on so many people in our organizations. It’s vitally important that we show up an understanding of we are gonna focus on what, what we con-control. Now, we’re gonna understand the brutal truth and the reality of situations, the markets, whatever it is, but let’s focus on what we can do and how we can respond to the situation as opposed to whining and complaining like a lot of people like to do.

So I also, again, think that’s just a more enjoyable way to, to live life.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, and in the example with your daughter too, there was also this undercurrent of, “I believe in you.” Like, “I, I got this,” right? And, and there’s a difference between, I think even in a, in a leadership position saying, saying, “Advantage us,” but you also have to suggest, “And I believe in you, I believe in us,” right?

For, to get people to act and believe in themselves.

Ryan Hawk: We

Melody Wilding: Love it.

Ryan Hawk: say to her,

Melody Wilding: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: to her, like, “You’re built for this,” and that’s a quote that she has, “I’m built for this,” in her room hanging up right now. “I’m built for this.” And so that, the cool… You know, s- s- I’m a sports guy, so maybe I’m a little biased, but that’s also a, a, like, a very portable lesson. Um, there’s a tough test at school.

I’m built for this, right? There’s a something going on outside of sports. Like, I’m built for this. I, I think it, that’s all about, like, the work you’ve done and the preparation leading up to these tough moments that you’re built for these types of things that we don’t kind of wither or, or get scared when there’s something that’s a little bit, uh, outside of your comfort or competency zone.

Like, we’re built for these types of things. So yeah, I, I, I like… I think when… Confidence can be portable, but it’s usually built through doing something

Melody Wilding: Yeah.

Ryan Hawk: to then go do the next hard thing, and it may not be in the same arena. that’s why it’s so important, again, for me to push my edges. It’s like, I don’t know how you feel before keynotes. Occasionally, I get nervous, and I’m a little like, “Ah, am I gonna do… I, I wanna, I wanna crush this thing.” And one of the mantras before going on stage, within, like, five minutes before going on stage is, “What an opportunity to create some evidence today. What an opportunity to create some evidence today. I’m gonna go create some evidence today.” ‘Cause confidence needs evidence, and I wanna be always creating evidence for myself, so the next time a little better, the next time a little better. Again, these little incremental gains, right, uh, is, is what this whole, like, price of becoming thing is all about, is, like, getting bit better, little bit better, little bit better, and watching the power of compounding happen over a long period of time.

But in order for that to work, like, I, I, I gotta go create some evidence today, and, and I think all these little ways of, of viewing maybe tough or uncomfortable situations, uh, c- can be helpful, uh, a- as you’re, as you’re getting ready to go do them

Melody Wilding: Hmm. Hmm. Okay, this is fantastic. There, there’s one more topic I wanna get into before we close today because you are, as we’ve been talking about, you are insatiably curious. You’ve reinvented yourself. You’ve become so many different things in your life. You have interviewed, how many was it now? How many episodes?

Ryan Hawk: Just under 700, yeah.

Melody Wilding: hundred. Seven hundred episodes. I, I can’t even imagine on top of that how many additional books you have read. So you are constantly learning, and a lot of people listening to this show are also voracious consumers of content, books, podcasts, courses. They don’t always metabolize it into behavior and action.

How do you do that? With the volume you have coming at you of perspectives, of information, how do you pick? How do you actually translate this or keep… People often will, will say to me, “Oh my God, how do you have a resource or a recommendation for everything?” And I often find that hard to articulate. I know I’m putting this question on you but how-

Ryan Hawk: kind of curious to hear what you say, but I, I’m happy… I’ll, I’ll share too, but

Melody Wilding: Yeah. The, I–

Ryan Hawk: ahead. Sorry.

Melody Wilding: No, you g- you go first, ’cause I, I wanna hear this because it is, you have…

Ryan Hawk: Yeah.

Melody Wilding: I think I am, I have a, I have en- encyclopedic knowledge where I can say, “Oh, this book is a great recommendation for this.” I am not the best. I’m very, um, I’m not a quick start personality. Takes a lot to get me to change or to take action, and so I’m fascinated by people like yourself who take bold bets, who are willing to, even if it’s in small ways, have the courage to put yourself out there to do things differently, to try what you’re hearing from somebody else, ’cause it takes a lot of integration to keep those things top of mind.

So I’m just curious how, how? How do you keep track of this all and actually turn it into transformation for yourself?

Ryan Hawk: Yeah, so one of my leadership heroes is, uh, Jim Collins, and, you know, he has this, this concept, this idea of the flywheel, and so I think of like what is your personal flywheel? So this is what it is for me. you could, every- I think everyone could create this version for themselves, because think just living in theory is, kind of pointless.

Uh, what’s the point of living if you’re not gonna do anything of these things you’re learning? So my personal flywheel. So it starts with, uh, with, with thinking of this little graph here that’s a circular, circular flywheel. First is fueling your intake engine, right? And this is… My surface area for this is pretty wide, it’s pretty b-broad. I start a lot of books and quit almost all of them. Um, very, uh, it’s gotta, it’s gotta, you gotta earn every turn of the page. This is, I think this way as a writer too. Um, so I, I… It’s pretty broad, but- Fueling intake engine, reading books, talking to mentors, listening to podcasts, watching TED Talks, like all the types of things you do to just give it to me.

Give, give me everything I, give me as much as possible, okay? I’m fueling the intake engine. The next step, very important step, is going from theory to action. So that is I’m going to test. I’m gonna run experiments. So let’s say, for example, a mentor me advice on how to run my Monday morning meeting, okay? And they said, “Okay, well, you’re doing this, this, and this. Instead, you should do this, this, and this.” Well, okay, I gotta go run the experiment. On Monday morning, maybe I’ll bring them with me, and I will test. I will run the experiment of this thing I learned, this theory, this idea, and I’m putting it into play, okay? So but I think you gotta do that for the bulk of the stuff that you’re learning, especially the, the stuff that you’re going deeper on, not the books you quit, but the ones that you really, “Oh, that’s a good idea. Okay, right.” Okay, theory to action. Run experiments, knowing that experiments fail a lot. That’s cool.

That’s fine. The next step is this reflective stage. Pause, think, what went right? What didn’t? I keep doing? What should I stop doing? What are new things I should do? Who do I need to talk to about this to learn a little bit more so that the next time I run the experiment, maybe it goes a little bit better, right? And so I think that reflective stage is really, really important after, right, after action reviews if you’re practicing or you’re running experiments, really important. All the military has some great stuff on that. Then the, the, the fourth stage before we turn the flywheel again teach it to somebody else.

You know this. This is what you do for a living, right? You’re learning, figuring out, running experiments, reflecting, but it really, really sharpens your thinking when you teach it to somebody else, whether that’s in the form of writing a book, writing an essay, a one-on-one conversation with a mentee, teaching a class, giving a keynote, talking on a podcast, sharing stories, whatever it may be. When you teach, that’s when I think you really solidify what you actually think or believe about a specific topic. This is why leader I work with, every single one of them, CEOs to frontline manager, whatever, and everything in between, the, one of the questions I’m gonna ask them all the time, “When is the next training session you’re leading?” especially the sup- super high up people, they go, “What? What are you talking about?” I go, “Well, when’s the next training you’re leading?” And they’ll say, “I don’t lead trainings, dude. I’m the CEO.” And I go, “You, you couldn’t lead a training at your company or, or anything?” Uh, th- that’s what our learning and development people do, or that’s what so-and-so does.

I go, if we’re gonna stay working together, that’s what you’re gonna do.” Because I think it’s regu- it’s great for s- for leaders to regularly be putting themselves in the position to be a teacher, right? Not just doing the town hall or, or writing the kind of company email with the helps of the com- the help of the comms person, but actually being in it getting clear on what you think and presenting and teaching and getting feedback from the people that you’re teaching so that you get even sharper. And so that, that last part, teaching, is so critical, is regularly putting yourself in the position to teach. Again, writing can be a form of that. I, that’s, I think writing can really clarify thinking, and so that’s why it’s important. So that’s, that’s how this kind of, like, intake engine, fuel that thing.

Run experiments, step back, reflect what worked, what didn’t, what I’m gonna keep doing, what should I stop, and then teach it, and then keep it cranking, keep it going. That, I think that, that’s a way you can regularly go from theory to practice to actually doing stuff, as opposed to just reading books and sitting in the corner and kind of asking questions and not ever doing anything.

But yeah, I, I, I… That, that’s a critical element. I’m glad you asked because, um, all know people like that. Like, they’re really well-read and, and they do th- and they can be interesting at times, but they’re not really doing anything. And to me, the whole point of all this is let’s put it into practice.

Like, let’s put it into play that so that we can, we as leaders can, could put a positive dent in the world and help other people.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. Yeah, it is active synthesizing. Yeah. And you know, it’s… Yeah, you know, it’s funny, I just wanna mention this. We, in, in one of my programs, Lead From Within, we do, um, in-depth career advancement planning with our clients, and we have them put together a 90-day plan for what does your next quarter look like in terms of how you’re positioning yourself for your next opportunity, visibility with senior leadership, what have you.

And the number one thing we end up commenting on is planning to plan. I will set aside 30 minutes on Friday to think about this. No, no, no, no. Now is the time you should be thinking about this, and it gets to your point about putting yourself through the paces and the hard work of, “I have to turn this idea over in my head.

I have to figure out who I want to talk to or how I do, uh, wanna position what I want next in my role.” You have to do that hard work, or else it’s just going to keep getting punted to, “Oh, I’ll think about that next week. I’ll put aside 30 minutes for that.” So it just struck me that that is… It seems like such a small thing, but it is a huge differentiator between the people that go up, you know, into the…

What is it? Up and to the right, and the people who kind of just limp, limp along with whatever is given to them. So

Ryan Hawk: so good. So

Melody Wilding: Ryan, this was… I am pumped up now. So

Ryan Hawk: Good.

Melody Wilding: I, I know the

Ryan Hawk: I

Melody Wilding: person,

Ryan Hawk: good,

Melody Wilding: yeah, who is listening on the other end will be. Where do we want to send them to connect with you and to get the book?

Ryan Hawk: Yeah, learningleader.com is kind of the home base for everything. Book’s called “The Price of Becoming.” It’s wherever books are sold, but learningleader.com shows everything from the podcast, books, everything that we got going on. So, yeah, that’s– I’m glad I chose that name a while ago because it’s kind of, it kind of fits, but sometimes, I guess you get lucky.

But my favorite leaders are learning leaders. My favorite coaches, teachers, parents, bosses, they’re the ones always kind of taking notes and thinking, and then put it into play. So yeah, learningleader.com is the home base for everything.

Melody Wilding: Fantastic. Thank you so much for being here.

Ryan Hawk: Thank you. Appreciate it.