[00:00:00] Melody Wilding: How do you become fully confident and in control of your emotions and experience at work? It’s by mastering your own psychology and that of others. On this show, we decode the science of success, exploring how to get out of your own way and advance your career to new levels without becoming someone you’re not.

[00:00:24] I’m Melody Wilding, bestselling author, human behavior professor, and award-winning executive coach. Get ready, and let’s put psychology to work for you.

[00:00:35] You want your team to be more resourceful. You want them to think for themselves, and you want to stop being the person everyone relies on for an answer without becoming hands-off or totally unavailable. But how do you do this, especially when you have less time to sit and support your people than you might prefer?

[00:00:53] Today’s guest has an answer: be more coach-like. Michael Bungay Stanier is the author of The Coaching Habit. It is a bestseller that has become an instant classic in the leadership space with over a million copies sold in the last 10 years, and he’s here to help you master one of the most powerful human skills, staying curious just a little bit longer.

[00:01:18] What I love about Michael’s approach is a lot of things. You’re gonna hear me really brag on him, but one of the things is esp- especially that his approach is not about adding so many more one-on-ones to your calendar or just becoming someone’s workplace therapist where you let them dump on you. He explains exactly how to coach others to a place of ownership and do that quickly, even when you already know the answer, and all of this frees up your time, your bandwidth, and you get higher quality thinking and ideas from every single person on your team.

[00:01:52] We get into how to stop your advice from accidentally sounding like a command, how to ask questions without seeming [00:02:00] vague, evasive, or like you are being indecisive and don’t know what you’re doing. We also talk about something that rarely gets discussed, which is coaching upward, meaning how do you use better questions with your boss, skip-level senior leaders, so you can extract the clarity and the priorities you need and position yourself as more strategic in the process?

[00:02:23] All right, let’s dive in.

[00:02:24] All right, Michael, MBS, the one, the only. It is such a pleasure and an honor to have you here. When my team saw I was interviewing you, they were like, they were starstruck. that is because your book, The Coaching Habit, has been a breakout phenomenon in the corporate world and beyond. And I, I am just so excited to have you here today because this is a book I recommend to almost every single one of my clients.

[00:02:56] So excited to get into this conversation

[00:02:59] Michael Bungay Stanier: Thanks, Melody. That’s such a nice welcome and, encouragement. The, the book has been, uh… I mean, it’s out for 10 years. You are holding up the 10-year anniversary, and, it is amazing that this book has been thriving for 10 years. I am as delighted and possibly confused as anybody that that’s the case.

[00:03:16] Melody: Yes, and it is, the 10th anniversary is also beautiful. It’s got your, one of your signature phrases along the side. It says, “Stay curious longer.” And we’re gonna get into that today, ’cause that is really tough for those of us

[00:03:31] Michael Bungay Stanier: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:32] Melody: the more high achieving. We wanna push, we wanna be the people pleaser who

[00:03:36] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:03:36] Melody: jumps in and smooths everything over.

[00:03:38] So gonna get into all of that today

[00:03:41] Michael Bungay Stanier: Exactly. C- b- because this is not a book written for coaches. It’s a book written for people who are managing and leading people, who could do with being a bit more coach-like for their sake and for the other person’s sake and for the team’s sake and for the organization’s sake. really it’s, it’s, it, it’s best thought of [00:04:00] as a book for people who are slightly skeptical about this whole coaching malarkey, because you’re the people I want to have you go, “Oh, well, if that’s coaching, I could probably do that, and I can see the benefit about why I would.”

[00:04:12] Melody: Yeah. L- let’s start there because I think most of the people listening to this, they are going to be mid, senior level leaders

[00:04:19] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:04:20] Melody: in your traditional corporate environments, nonprofits, hospitals, academia, you name it.

[00:04:26] Michael Bungay Stanier: Although just, just as an aside, what is a traditional organization these days? It’s so confusing. Everything’s being turned up and turned around and stirred up. So, yeah, if you’re in a traditional organization, I salute you

[00:04:40] Melody: That’s right. That, that is very true. That is a very good nuance. for them though, when you say be more coach-like,

[00:04:48] Michael Bungay Stanier: Mm.

[00:04:48] Melody: that mean

[00:04:50] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:04:50] Melody: day for the person who is on the ground, who has direct reports, customers, who has people above them? How does that look different than they may be operating today?

[00:05:01] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah, it’s a really simple singular behavior, and it’s simply this: Can you just stay curious a little bit longer, and can you rush to action and advice-giving a little bit more slowly? Because the people who are listening, and I haven’t even met them, but I know this to be true, the people who are listening right now are probably advice-giving maniacs.

[00:05:22] They, they love to give advice. They feel that this is the way that they, quote-unquote, “add value to the conversation.” And this isn’t just for their direct reports, although obviously it’s that, but it’s for your colleagues who you’re collaborating with. It’s for your boss who you’re working with. It’s for your prospects.

[00:05:39] It’s for your clients. Anybody who has impact on not just your success but your happiness at work can benefit from you being curious just a little bit longer and rushing to action and advice-giving just a little bit more slowly.

[00:05:55] Melody: Hmm. Yeah. for high achieving leaders, [00:06:00] again, a lot of the people listening to this will be thinking, “Okay, I hear you, Michael, but I, I do try to stay away from giving advice because I want people to find their own solutions.

[00:06:13] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:06:14] Melody: I, I am trying to help and support them.” you actually say in the book, and I would agree with you, that this can become a sneaky form of control.

[00:06:25] Michael Bungay Stanier: Hmm. Well, there is, I’ll probably start like this, Melody. I just think leading people is tricky. I mean, people are messy and confusing and irrational and emotional, and that’s just you. I mean, that’s also true of the people that you’re, you’re leading as well. And it is, relentlessly tricky to navigate around how do I bring out their best?

[00:06:54] How do I encourage them to be braver? How do I maintain my own boundaries? How do I make sure that they’re working in service of the organizational mission and the team mission and the purpose? So everything you do, you can hold up and go, “Why am I doing this? And is this serving me, or is it serving them, or is it serving the organization?

[00:07:18] What’s, what’s going on with that?” So I think, I mean, there’s an obvious way where you micromanage somebody and you’re like, “Oh, that’s, that’s helping me. That’s making me feel safer and more control and more senior and more like, you know, I’m the boss here.” but I know that, you know, one of the ways that I’ve managed poorly in the past, just one of the many ways that I’ve managed poorly in the past, is almost a kind of a, a hands-off, “Okay, I’m, I’m actually giving up all responsibility for guidance and shaping and decision-making, and I’m just gonna dump it all on them.”

[00:07:51] And then when they fail, due to my lack of support, encouragement, clarity, vision, coaching, I c- I can kind of [00:08:00] blame them for their own demise. So all of this stuff is slippery, which makes the call to do it well so powerful because I think everybody listening has probably, I hope this is true, had one leader in their past at least who’s got– you’ve gone, “That person really got me, really saw me, really encouraged me, really brought out my best.”

[00:08:23] And you can still feel the impact of that person’s leadership long after the actual work you did has come and gone.

[00:08:31] Melody: Hmm. Yeah, and this is a, it can be a tough line for leaders to walk, which I wanna get into, because a- at once you were talking about clarity of vision, and many people have been put in a leadership role to make decisions,

[00:08:46] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:08:47] Melody: drive certain results. at the same time, something you talk about in the book, and I, I love, I love this framing of it, we need to go from having all of the answers to and cultivating in the people around us the capability to think better.

[00:09:08] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:09:09] Melody: How, how do you think about that sort of meta skill of coaching or teaching

[00:09:15] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:09:15] Melody: people around you to think better? Because I, you know, of course, we can’t have a conversation without mentioning AI in, like, the first five minutes, so here we go. Which is, I, I feel like that’s kind of stealing some of our ability away

[00:09:28] Michael Bungay Stanier: Mm-hmm. Yeah

[00:09:30] Melody: some of our thinking to that.

[00:09:32] So I’m just curious for you to riff on that.

[00:09:34] Michael Bungay Stanier: Sure. Look, I think one of the, the fundamental shifts that people listening in, this might be helpful for them, is to understand that your advice has never been that great, and it is probably as least good as it has ever been. Because in terms of answers, answers are everywhere, and AI, generally speaking, will give you a pretty good answer pretty much every time [00:10:00] with better, better sources, better quotes, more depth, more rigor than you’re ever going to have.

[00:10:06] So if you are a, a senior leader, a mid-level leader, and you’re thinking to yourself, “The reason I’m leading is ’cause I have great answers,” I think you are deluded. There’s a place for advice, there’s a place for answers, but just don’t be thinking that that’s your main force here, because I just don’t think it is.

[00:10:23] so if it’s not your answers, what are you here for? What’s the… How do you lead in a time of AI where AI is generating not just all the answers, but can do half the work, if not more? Well, I think it is about building people’s capacity and courage and connection in, in the work that they do. These are things that AI can’t, can’t do.

[00:10:47] Can’t do yet, anyway. So one of the things that happens with AI is it, you have people working just by themselves, themselves and their computer, uh, themselves and their agent. so rather than having them cocooning, I think this idea of how do we make connections? How do you connect them to other people in the team, other people in the organization, so you’ve got that collective wisdom?

[00:11:10] Because there is the wisdom of the crowds. We are always smarter than, we are smarter than me, or every time. There’s a place of, of certainty and clarity, and I think as a leader, one of the things that you’re doing now is helping people find clarity over certainty. AI is brilliant at delivering certainty.

[00:11:29] It may be completely wrong, but it is absolutely certain that the answer it’s giving you is the right answer. Whereas one of the things that you do with, as a leader, is you help people get clear on what really matters, create clarity, often through good coaching questions. And I think there’s courage as well.

[00:11:48] You know, it’s so easy in organizational life in general just to kind of keep your head down, follow the flow, don’t make a, don’t make a, a, a ruckus. and I think one of the things that you can do as a [00:12:00] leader is help your people be brave and make the braver choice. Get, make the b- the bolder leap to actually make a difference in the work that they do.

[00:12:07] Melody: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:12:08] Michael Bungay Stanier: I’m not sure if I answered your question there. I feel like I got off on,

[00:12:11] Melody: did. No, you did. You did. It also strikes me that there is a level of eating humble pie that it takes to be more coach-like,

[00:12:23] Michael Bungay Stanier: 嗯

[00:12:23] Melody: you were saying. You, yes, you have to accept that your advice, advice has never been perfect and is probably worse than ever before, also that you don’t have the same vantage point

[00:12:34] Michael Bungay Stanier: Ugh.

[00:12:34] Melody: team, your colleague, your senior leader may have.

[00:12:38] Michael Bungay Stanier: 嗯

[00:12:38] Melody: we just show up to a conversation and prescribe, also think about how much we’re missing,

[00:12:44] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:12:45] Melody: our– we don’t have that 360 view. So it, it strikes me that that could be true as well.

[00:12:52] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah, I think that’s right. now look, if you’re listening to this, dear listener, and you’re going, “Look, I can’t just be asking questions the whole time. I mean, what, what’s going on here?” Look, I mean, I agree with you. There are different moments which require different types of leadership. and this is, you know, this is no great insight that I’m serving up.

[00:13:11] This has been known for, for ages. Daniel Goleman, who’s most famous for making emotional intelligence a kind of well-known phenomena, like twenty-five years ago, maybe longer, he wrote an article for HBR, Harvard Business Review, called Leadership That Gets Results. And he actually says, look, there are six different types of leadership.

[00:13:29] This is research-based, so lots of, horizontal and vertical studies across different companies and different countries. Um, six different types of leadership. They all have their moment. They all have pros and cons, prizes and punishments. and one of those moments is, you know, being decisive, making the decision, giving the advice, making the thing happen.

[00:13:50] another one of those leadership skills was being co-coach-like, coaching people. And what’s interesting is he, he found that coaching, even though it had a really [00:14:00] direct correlation to bottom-line impact and also, engagement, it was the least used of the leadership skills. But the key insight is that great leaders know how to use all six different types of leadership, depending on the moment, depending on the situation.

[00:14:16] Um, typical leaders have one or two leadership tricks in their bag, and most of them are missing the kind of the core skills of coaching, and that’s part of what I’m about.

[00:14:27] Melody: Yes, I could, could not agree more. It’s that situational awareness and

[00:14:32] Michael Bungay Stanier: Hi.

[00:14:32] Melody: of what does this situation, this person call for? And so I wanna come back to that, but you mentioned questions, and that is really at the heart of this book,

[00:14:42] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yes

[00:14:43] Melody: approach. so can you give us an overview? Of course, we want people to get, get the book,

[00:14:49] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:14:49] Melody: and I, I wanna give them a taste though

[00:14:52] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:14:52] Melody: when you say be more coach-like, how do we do that?

[00:14:56] ‘Cause you give a very… It is simple, but it is elegant and sophisticated in its just, a-again, in, in the simplicity of it. are those core questions people can ask?

[00:15:10] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah, sure. you know, I wrote the book to un-weird coaching, and one of the ways to try and do that was to try and make it as simple as possible so, it still felt useful and accessible for people. So I went through lots of different iterations of this book. Some, some versions had 108 questions, some of them had five questions.

[00:15:29] In the end, I ended up with seven, and I thought to myself, “Seven questions?” There are more than seven good questions out in the world, but these seven questions get you a long way down the path in many, many situations. So if all you have are seven questions, you are… It’s a, it’s a bit of a multi-tool, you know.

[00:15:46] You’re pretty well-equipped. so I can rattle through these pretty quickly for people. So there is the kickstart question, which is a really great way to get going in any conversation, and it’s this: What’s on your mind? It’s an [00:16:00] acceleration and an invitation to talk about actually what’s important, what people are worried about, excited about, nervous about, fretting about.

[00:16:09] And, you know, if you’re, if you’re listening and one of the things that you don’t enjoy about your work is your one-to-one meetings with your folks, um, because they feel a bit performative and a bit tedious and a bit boring, which has certainly been my experience of these one-to-ones. a question where you’re like, “Right, don’t tell me all the stuff you’re up to.

[00:16:28] Tell me what’s on your mind so I can be helpful to help you solve that, figure that, you know, work through that.” That’s the kickstart question. The second question I’m going to share is the focus question, and it’s this: What’s the real challenge here for you? What’s the real challenge here for you? And the focus question has at its heart the insight that, the first challenge that shows up is almost never the real challenge and certainly never the only challenge.

[00:16:55] So part of your job, perhaps your most important part of your job, is to help people figure out what the real thing is that they need to be solving and fixing and worrying about. So what’s the real challenge here for you is the focus question. And then there’s what I think is possibly the best coaching question in the world.

[00:17:13] So AWE, it’s, it’s the acronym. And AWE, so awesome, stands for and what else? And behind that question is simply their first answer is not their only answer. So when you’ve asked a question and they’ve given you an answer, don’t stop being curious. Stay curious a little bit longer, and and what else can really help with that.

[00:17:36] Then you’ve got the foundation question, which is what do you want? of all the questions, that’s the one where you’ve really got to get the tone of it just right, because you can ask what do you want in a slightly grumpy, aggressive, you know, mean sort of way. but what do you want with kind of genuine, fierce curiosity can be really powerful.

[00:17:55] the strategy question, so what are we up to now? Number five, I think. Uh, a, [00:18:00] a big question, a really good question, forces choice. Which is If you’re gonna say yes to this, what do you need to say no to? ‘Cause everyone’s got too many things on their plate, and every time they say yes, they’re already overcommitted, so this forces choice.

[00:18:15] In some ways, that’s what strategy is. Then there’s the lazy question, provocatively named and, and paradoxically named because that question is how can I help or what do you want from me? it’s designed actually to slow down the rush to leaping in uninvited, which is what most people do. And then the final of the seven questions is the learning question, and the insight here is that, you know, part of your job is to help your people get smarter, and they don’t get smarter just by doing stuff.

[00:18:45] They get smarter by having a moment to reflect on what’s just been done. So the question here is what was most useful or most valuable for you?

[00:18:55] Melody: Hmm. Oh my gosh, we could spend an entire episode on every single

[00:19:00] Michael Bungay Stanier: probably could. We probably could, yeah

[00:19:03] Melody: And I’m curious from your perspective, do you see people deploy an unideal way? You mentioned the, you know, be mindful about your tone when you’re asking for what do you need, which, which I can see, but is there one you think that people use at the wrong time, at the wrong place most often?

[00:19:22] Michael Bungay Stanier: Ah, that’s a good question. what’s nice about questions is if you use them at the wrong time or the wrong place, or even if you ask them in a way that doesn’t quite land, most of all that happens is it’s just a slightly awkward moment in the conversation where the person goes, what? I didn’t…” Um, and everybody gets to recover from that and move on, so you can just ask a-another question.

[00:19:44] I think, any of these questions where you’re just kind of– it feels like you’re rattling through a script rather than being present to the person and being re– genuinely curious as to what’s going on with them, runs the, the [00:20:00] risk of, reducing the power of that coaching. So, you know, for, “And what else?”

[00:20:05] I’ve seen people kind of go, “And what else? And what else? And what else?” You know, kind of in a slightly bored, slightly mechanical way. and, you know, even though I’d be asking these questions and, you know, these are a solid percentage of the questions I ask when I’m coaching or working with people, you know, my real job is to be present to that other person, and be curious, deeply curious about what their, what their answers might be.

[00:20:29] So I think any question asked with real intent and a genuine desire to serve is going to be powerful. And sometimes the question doesn’t land even when you’ve got that good intent, in which case you go, “Ah, that question, I’m not sure that question was that good. Let me ask you a different question and see if that’s more helpful for you.”

[00:20:50] Melody: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I do, I do that in sessions sometimes. Like, let me, let me try again.

[00:20:55] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah, exactly. Let me try again. And I, and I will tell people if I’m coaching them at the start, I may do this because, you know, sometimes I’ll ask you a question and it’s not that great, and that’s on me rather than, than on you. in which case I’ll probably just try and ask you a different question.

[00:21:11] Just like Melody, when, when before we started recording, you said, “Look, this is a, this is a produced podcast, so people… We’ve got an editor who’s looking after this, and if I screw up, they’ll be able to kind of fix that up, for me.” It was a really nice way to really say, “Michael, if you screw up, don’t worry about it because we’ll have an, we’ll have an editor to, to, to solve that.”

[00:21:33] and part of what I, I get to say is, when I’m coaching somebody is, “If I screw this up, I’ll just ask you a different question.” It’s also saying to, saying, “Look, even if you screw up, and the conversation is dying because, ’cause you’ve just given me a nonsensical answer or you, you… Whatever, that’s fine.

[00:21:51] We’ll figure a way through it

[00:21:53] Melody: Yes. Okay, I wanna come back to that because I, I, I’ll loop back to that in one second.

[00:21:59] Michael Bungay Stanier: Okay

[00:21:59] Melody: But [00:22:00] you, you were talking about being, being open. Yes, I, I made take do-overs. How do you introduce, or do you even advise that people introduce a shift in your approach, especially if it’s been vastly different? You have not been coach-like at all.

[00:22:17] You’ve been very giver,

[00:22:20] Michael Bungay Stanier: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:20] Melody: tell you what to do, let me just support you and, and smooth everything over, fix everything for you instead of engaging you and asking questions. Do you suggest almost introducing or up that you’re going to take a different approach or just start weaving this in?

[00:22:39] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah, I think, I mean, the, the, the not helpful response to that is, well, it depends a bit. One of the things that I’m trying to do is to make being curious an ongoing part of most interactions. So this is more about in your check-ins, in the walk from the car to the office, over lunch, when you’re walking down the corridor, when you’ve got your team meetings.

[00:23:05] You’re not going, “Okay, I’m just putting on my coaching hat, and I’m, I’m erecting the coaching banner, and I’m declaring this a coaching session.” It’s more just to say, “Look, on an ongoing basis, how do you stay curious longer?” You know, the three principles we have are be lazy, be curious, be often. So being lazy, stop doing other people’s work for them and doing, answering their own questions.

[00:23:28] be lazy, be curious, it means taming your advice monster and staying curious a bit longer. And be often is every interaction can be a bit more curious. And so I wouldn’t kind of, presage every conversation going, “I’m gonna try and ask you a few more questions in this.” That feels, like, hard and a bit weird.

[00:23:48] but I might say to them, in a different– Like, if you’re having a one-to-one conversation with them, you know, maybe at the end of the one-to-one, you could say, “Look, here’s what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to add [00:24:00] curiosity, into the way I work, ’cause I realize there are times I rush a little too quickly into telling you what to do or giving my opinion.

[00:24:07] and I’ve got some good things to share with you, and I’m not gonna not share them with you, but I’m just trying to slow down the rush around that. I could really do with your help to try and, keep me on the line. So I don’t know. How do you– Let’s figure something out so that if you feel that I’ve rushed to an answer too quickly, is there a s- a secret word or a hand gesture or, you know, slap me with a wet fish?

[00:24:30] I don’t know. You could come up with some sort of thing to sort of get people’s help.” So it’s a, it’s actually a powerful act of leadership where you’re like, “Look, I’m role modeling vulnerability. I’m role modeling asking for help. I’m role modeling I’m trying to get better at my own, my own job.” above and beyond the power of being curious, you’re actually role modeling a deeper, a deeper form of leadership as well, I think.

[00:24:57] Melody: Yeah, 100%. And you had, you had said this before, but I, I really wanna underscore it for people that what you just said takes away the objection that a lot of people, I think maybe, maybe under the surface, which is, “Okay, this sounds great, but I don’t have time. I don’t

[00:25:16] Michael Bungay Stanier: Right

[00:25:16] Melody: sit with people and handhold them and have these nice conversations.” And what you were saying is not, and correct me if I’m wrong, but that coach-like conversations are not separate, like its own little category that you have at certain times. It is weaved throughout your entire approach, and it shows up in very deliberate to be more effective and get higher leverage out of every conversation you may already be having.

[00:25:44] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah, I mean, I, it is. y- you should think of this as, not additive but transformative. Because nobody has room to add coaching to what they’re already doing, and even if they have a little bit of room, there’s other stuff that needs to get added in first. Like, coaching always [00:26:00] feels, even if it feels important, it probably doesn’t feel urgent.

[00:26:04] but if you think to yourself, “Look, every interaction I have, I can stay curious a little bit longer,” and that’s actually going to actually make those conversations more helpful, more empowering, more encouraging for people. I mean, one of the beliefs driving this book is I think you can have a coach-like conversation with somebody in ten minutes or less, and in fact, I think most of the time you should have conversations that are ten minutes or less.

[00:26:28] and one of the, part of the, the baggage that comes with the word coaching is kind of people going, “I don’t know. Is this like an hour-long coaching session that we’re doing together?” Look, if you’re a busy manager and leader, and who isn’t? Nobody has time to add an hour-long coaching session on a regular basis with every member that’s your direct report.

[00:26:49] That’s, that’s nuts. But you can, you can ask what’s on your mind, and you can say, “Look, I realize that my job, my most useful role is not having the fast answer. It’s asking the question that helps us figure out what the real challenge is.” Now that, that’s something that you can weave throughout all of your work, and it doesn’t even take that much time, and it will make all the difference

[00:27:13] Melody: Hmm. Yeah, and okay, this is going to be another one of those it depends questions, but I know, again, my, my people are very, in terms of being prescriptive and give me advice, tell me what to do and give me the marching orders

[00:27:27] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:27:28] Melody: And so the person listening may be thinking to themselves, “But what’s the right balance?

[00:27:33] Do I ask three of these questions in a conversation?

[00:27:37] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:27:37] Melody: I ask one question and then I let the person answer and I inject my viewpoint or I correct them if they need to be?” Are there any guidelines around when you should continue to stick in coach-like questioning mode versus, as you were saying before, switching into one of those other six

[00:27:56] Michael Bungay Stanier: Mm-hmm. Yeah

[00:27:58] Melody: of a leadership approach?[00:28:00] 

[00:28:01] Michael Bungay Stanier: I mean, annoyingly, the, the only way you realize how much is too much is by going too far. So the only time you’re gonna realize that you’ve, you’ve asked one too many questions is that moment when you’ve asked one too many questions. You, you have to discover your own, your own boundaries around that. But I’m like, okay, so what if you set yourself the goal to just not give the answer in the first 90 seconds of the conversation?

[00:28:29] You know, let’s not make this a big thing. Let’s make it an incremental thing, which is like, okay, I’m gonna see if I can ask two questions in a row or three questions in a row before I leap in with the answer. ‘Cause actually, the first step for many of us is just starting to become aware of how fast we default to answer giving.

[00:28:48] You know, you’re in a conversation, somebody says something, and you are flooded with ideas and opinions and suggestions, and you’re, you’re kind of like, you stop listening ’cause now you’re just kind of waiting for a moment to, to interrupt them. So perhaps you’ve moved into fake, you know, active listening mode.

[00:29:07] You know, you’re like nodding along, making small grunting noises of encouragement, looking interested yet concerned. but you’re doing performative listening rather than actual listening, because you’re like, “Oh, I’ve got, I’ve got this answer.” And so that will happen to all of us. You know, there’s a whole TEDx talk I’ve given called Tame Your Advice Monster, so you can go and watch that if you want to kind of dig deeper into that.

[00:29:30] and you can just go, “Look, I’ve got a good answer, but let me just see if I can go another minute without giving it to them.” And here’s, here’s one of the… Here’s a script you can use, that might be helpful for you to take the pressure off. When somebody comes up to you and says, “Okay, h- Michael, how do I do this thing?”

[00:29:49] You know, instantly you’ve got some opinions ’cause you just, you just do. You know, your head is full of them. And here’s what I say. It’s a script I’ve learned. “I’ve got some ideas. I’ll definitely [00:30:00] tell you what they are. But before I tell you what I’ve thought of, let me know what you’ve already thought of.

[00:30:06] Oh, great, I like that. And what else? Oh, that’s good. Oh, yeah, what else? Oh, okay, interesting. What else? Oh, I hadn’t thought of that, but okay. And what else? Okay. Wow, good. This is great. Anything else?” And to their surprise, they’ve had more ideas than they realized. Like, you’ve just helped them decant some of the ideas that were there.

[00:30:27] Cunningly, you now know which of your ideas they already had, so you’re not gonna be redundant with that, and it still leaves you a bit of space to go, “I love all of your ideas. Let me add one or two that I thought of as well.” So you get that sense of being able to contribute if you’d like to do that.

[00:30:45] What this also does for many of us is it removes the boss’s idea syndrome. You know, which is like, as soon as your boss tells you what she thinks you should do, everybody goes, “I think we should do what she told us to do,” because that wasn’t an idea, that was more of a command. and when you have the other person go first in generating ideas, your idea as the boss just becomes one on the table rather than the big thing that sucks up the, the oxygen for– from the room

[00:31:15] Melody: Yeah. I, I do that all the time, what you were just saying, and if any clients, anyone in our programs is listening, you will hear me do that now. I have some thoughts and perspective on, on what you could do with this, but let’s start with what you think first. And this, this one, is also a great one to use up the chain of command. Yes, we can use it with our own direct reports or our colleagues, for example, but up the chain of command too. Before I dive into my perspective or my plan on this,

[00:31:45] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:31:45] Melody: me hear where, where you’re sitting or where you have arrived with this. So you’re– In that case, it’s important because you’re teeing up, “I, I have judgment here.

[00:31:55] I have a point of view.” So the person respects that you’re not just coming to the table [00:32:00] helplessly, but as you were saying, the intel you get to then target your answer

[00:32:05] Michael Bungay Stanier: Exactly.

[00:32:06] Melody: and understand how they are thinking, that can be invaluable.

[00:32:09] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah, that’s right. You’re, you’re also making it safe ’cause they’re like, “Oh, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna leave empty-handed. Mike or, or Melody’s promised me, me something.” You’re also being lazy in a good way because, you know, particularly if this is for your direct reports, they get smarter by doing the thinking, and if you’re jumping in with the answer and the solution all the time, you are not giving them the opportunity to figure some stuff out, to have some original thoughts, to feel their way into stuff that they don’t yet know.

[00:32:42] So you’re actually, you know, you’re denying them an opportunity to learn and grow and build their own capacity as well

[00:32:50] Melody: Yeah, exactly. I do– Before we wrap up here, I do want to ask the question about using these seven questions or a more coach-like approach laterally and upward the power dynamics are different, right? With a direct report, there is more just built in.

[00:33:08] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:33:08] Melody: end of the day, I, I am the boss here. I can prescribe to you what to do and how to move forward. there any nuances people should keep in mind when they are using a coach-like approach or any of these questions where it is their colleague, it is

[00:33:24] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah,

[00:33:24] Melody: their skip level, an executive?

[00:33:26] Michael Bungay Stanier: Well, let me ask you, what do you think the real challenge is in asking somebody senior to you, a question rather than something else?

[00:33:34] Melody: I think it’s a few things. I think people get in their head about what I, what I was just saying before is they don’t want to look like they are being evasive

[00:33:42] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:33:42] Melody: they’re avoiding a question, and they don’t know what they’re talking about, and the executive or their colleague may realize that. they know that some of these people may be, “Come on, let’s keep things moving so we don’t have as much time for dialogue and questions.” And they, they [00:34:00] know that, you know, there is this balance of, well, at the end of the day, they are the leader, so I should be… Yes, I should be asking what their perspective is instead of, trying to make it more of this two-way dialogue.

[00:34:16] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:17] Melody: those are a few of the things that

[00:34:18] Michael Bungay Stanier: I, I like it.

[00:34:19] Melody: Yeah.

[00:34:19] Michael Bungay Stanier: And, and what I was also trying to do there is just to role model what it can sound like when you ask your colleague a coaching question. Which is like, I’m not trying to make this weird, I’m not trying to coach you, I’m just being curious. So I just ask one of the seven questions, what’s the real challenge?

[00:34:35] And Melody’s like, “Great, I’ve got some thoughts.” And I’m like, “Fantastic around that.” and I agree with what you’re saying. I, I think, it’s one of those things where you feel your way into the conversation, and context really matters. There’s some times where you’re like up, up in front of your CEO who’s eight levels higher than you, and, you know, maybe this is a place for, you know, crisp answers rather than, than great questions.

[00:35:02] But look, everybody is surrounded by people and devices that give them answers all day long. So actually having somebody going, “Look, I know, I know we’re here to, to figure these answers out, but let me just ask you a question before we get to the answers.” you know, where– so there’s a way you can just do a little introduction that acknowledges the context.

[00:35:26] But asking questions is a strategic act. organizations tend to have a lack of people who can strategically think rather than an excess of people who can strategically think. They tend to have an excess of people who can do tactics, but fewer people who have the rigor of thinking to figure out what’s really going on here.

[00:35:49] So if you claim that stake, it is less comfortable, it can be a bit awkward, it can feel riskier at times, but the rewards might be greater

[00:35:59] Melody: Hmm. [00:36:00] It is so interesting you, you say that. I remember, maybe a year or two ago, I had a client who was very self-conscious about the way they communicated. Am I being authoritative enough? Am I speaking up enough in meetings offering a clear point of view? So she did a 360 that, you know, I, I coached her through, and the number one thing that came back out of that 360 was people loved and valued her ability to ask right?

[00:36:27] To cut through all of the clutter and the

[00:36:30] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:36:31] Melody: and the, the people trying to posture, and she would just insert really great questions

[00:36:36] Michael Bungay Stanier: Exactly

[00:36:37] Melody: would get leadership to think.

[00:36:40] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:36:40] Melody: I wanted to add that too because it, it strikes me that a question like, what is the real challenge here,

[00:36:46] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:36:46] Melody: is something that, yes, you can use one-on-one, but that’s also great to raise your hand in a meeting and

[00:36:52] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah.

[00:36:53] Melody: “Let’s back up for a second.

[00:36:54] I

[00:36:54] Michael Bungay Stanier: Right

[00:36:55] Melody: we’re solving for the right thing. What’s the core challenge here?” And as you were

[00:36:58] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:36:59] Melody: then you position yourself as someone who’s thinking more broadly

[00:37:02] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah

[00:37:02] Melody: instead of very micro and execution oriented. So

[00:37:05] Michael Bungay Stanier: And it can even be,

[00:37:06] Melody: these are

[00:37:07] Michael Bungay Stanier: it can be a, an even, kind of more obscure way of doing it. You can just say, “Look, it feels like we’re going around the table a lot. There’s a lot, a lot of heat and noise at the moment. I’ve slightly lost track of what we’re talking about. What, what’s the key thing we’re trying to figure out here?”

[00:37:24] Which is another way of just saying, you know, what’s the real challenge here for you? and these little moments, are acts of leadership that get noticed

[00:37:33] Melody: Absolutely. Michael, thank you so much for this. Gonna be a game changer

[00:37:37] Michael Bungay Stanier: Oh, my pleasure

[00:37:39] Melody: they connect with you and get the book? Where’s the best place to send them?

[00:37:43] Michael Bungay Stanier: Sure. So, the personal website is mbs.works, and that’s kind of the overall umbrella. I think thecoachinghabit.com has a bunch of stuff directly related to the 10-year anniversary and lots of free stuff that people can download. and if you’re kind of like, “How do we bring this [00:38:00] training program into our organization?”

[00:38:02] Boxofcrayons.com is the organization that, trains the IP from “The Coaching Habit” book

[00:38:08] Melody: Amazing. Thank you again for being here

[00:38:10] Michael Bungay Stanier: Of course. Thanks, Melody.

[00:38:12] Melody Wilding: Thanks for tuning in to today’s episode of Psychology At Work. If you enjoyed the show, I’d be so grateful if you could take just a minute to rate and review wherever you are listening. It’s how we reach more professionals just like you. And if you’d like to see even more content on how to feel more self-assured, grounded, and in control of your emotions and reactions at work, follow me on LinkedIn or head to the links in the show notes.