Jessica has been at her current organization for 21 years, but recently when senior leadership shifted, her comfort zone disappeared overnight. The people who understood her body of work, her contributions, her value, they were gone. They were replaced by new executives who came in with their own assumptions, their own priorities, and no context for what she had been building for the last two decades.

Jessica shares how she navigated one of the most challenging transitions of her career and how learning to sharpen, polish and hone her communication inside the program has completely transformed how quickly she’s been able to build trust, credibility, and even secure more resources, including hiring a full-time team member.

You’ll get to hear about the strategies and shifts that helped her have a confident voice with executives and save time instead of overthinking every little message. Plus, if you have been on the fence thinking about joining us inside Speak Like a Senior Leader, but you have been thinking to yourself, I don’t have the time,

I don’t know if this will work for me. This is the perfect opportunity to hear from someone who is a mom of two, who is juggling a demanding role and still got tremendous value and results from the program, even without attending most of the live calls or doing every single little thing. All right, let’s dive in. Jessica, thank you so much for joining me on the show. I am thrilled to have you here. It’s such a pleasure. 

Jessica Shaw: Oh, my pleasure. It’s great to be here. Really excited to talk about my experience so far. 

Melody Wilding: Amazing. We are going to talk about your story and your experience in my Speak Like a Senior Leader program.

We will get there in a moment. Yes. But first, tell the people listening a little bit about who you are, what you do, whatever you’re open to sharing. 

Jessica Shaw: Yeah, absolutely. so I live in Austin, Texas and it’s, this time of year finally getting a little chilly around here. So it actually feels like fall, which is really lovely.

I have been working with the same organization for about 21 years. I’m heading up our L and D team currently. And I also am extremely passionate and really enjoy spending time, leadership coaching. So I, I make the joke that I figured out what I wanna be when I grow up at the age of 41. and that is a leadership coach.

So that’s definitely where my passions lie. 

Melody Wilding: Amazing and how cool you get to be in an organization every day on the l and d side as well to put those skills to use, which is very fun and also so interesting to have someone on the show who has been in their role 21 years. That’s uncommon nowadays, so, yep.

I am sure you have seen a lot of change, a lot of growth evolution in, in your role, in your organization over that time. What was happening for you in your career, in your work life when you were thinking about joining Speak Like a Senior Leader? 

Jessica Shaw: Yeah, great question. and it. Couldn’t have come at a better time.

 As you said, I, I’ve been with this organization for a long time. A lot of my colleagues have been there for a long time as well. And for a while a lot of the, leadership presence in my life had been there for a while. So we knew each other, we knew each other’s bodies of work. We were aligned on how we got to where we were and what plans for next steps were.

And then we had some changes at the senior leadership level. So. Essentially my comfort zone was removed from me, which pros and cons. But I, I realized that my body of work was no longer, as commonly known as it as it once was. So I had to start communicating with a different group of people in very different ways. And we all

we’re coming to the table with our own experiences and therefore our own assumptions of how things were working, how they should be working, what next steps were, what priorities were. So I realized that it was on me to communicate better and communicate differently. And I had already been in your orbit.

I heard you on a podcast for the first time at the beginning of this year. I can’t remember which podcast it was. It might have been, either coaching for leaders or how to be awesome at your job. Coaching for Leaders. Okay. 

Melody Wilding: Who do I, I think if it was for this book, then it was, then it was Coaching for Leaders, which was one of my favorites.

Yeah. 

Jessica Shaw: Okay. Yeah, so immediately, I think I finished that podcast, got the audio book, have been in your orbit ever since, and I, so I already knew that the content was incredibly tactical. And it was going to be a very good use of my time. So I had actually already written a 2025 goal for myself that was on record with my organization, with my boss, that I needed to increase my ability to communicate, essentially my executive presence.

So when I heard of Speak Like a Leader. It was perfect and I, was able to get the support, the financial support of my organization for it. So it was really stars aligning and I was really excited. I think, I don’t remember. There was maybe a month or two between when I applied and then when the program started.

And it was a long two months because I was really excited to get started. 

Melody Wilding: I’m so glad to hear that the anticipation was building. Yes. and Dave Stachowiak the coach, the host of Coaching for Leaders Rather, is a good friend and highly recommend that show. If anyone is not listening to that yet, definitely put it in your rotation.

And just going back to your situation with the organization and the evolution of the leadership, and you were talking about being able to speak to your value in the work that you were doing and also that stated goal you had around communication and executive presence. What did you feel like was the biggest challenge or block you were having in that area at this time?

What, what felt like the most important area you needed to improve or you wanted support with around that? 

Jessica Shaw: Two things come to mind. One is, the answer to your question. The other one is indirect context. I don’t think it’s unique to my organization, but learning and development can have, it can be challenging for us to feel like we have a, a big enough seat at the table.

So there, there’s we’re a little bit behind the eight ball to begin with in that the value of learning, development, learning and development isn’t always seen. Then I would say where I needed to improve was speaking their language, understanding what the priorities were of these new senior leaders, and then communicating how myself, an individual on my team, my team as a whole could support

those priorities. A term that comes to mind from your work is the scope and scale. And I, I was not very skilled at communicating exactly what we were doing and exactly what it impacted in the context of what was important to those senior leaders. So I think that was specifically where I recognized the opportunity for myself.

Melody Wilding: Hmm. So interesting. Yeah, and I’m sure when you’re in l and d, you, you do spend a lot of time executing programs and campaigns and award employee recognition, whatever it is, and yeah, and so it can also be tough to be able to zoom out and think about what is the larger impact on the organization and to, it sounds like also you are someone who realizes you needed to be

a steward or the champion of what your team was doing. Yes. It’s about the impact you, Jessica are creating, but it’s also about making sure that your team is getting recognition that is trickling upwards, so to speak, so you are getting the resources that you need and you have the executive buy-in for what you wanna do this year and the years ahead, or the technology you need to make that happen, which is very wise, I think.

So when you think about you, you mentioned that term, scope and scale, and yes, we talk about that a lot and speak like a senior leader because it’s a big mistake or rather opportunity that people miss, which is we don’t signal, especially someone like yourself who’s operating at a bit of a higher level.

 you’re not entry level. Right. But we don’t signal the complexity or the gravity of our work through the way we communicate about it. So when you think about the concept of scope and scale, could you walk through, an example that comes to mind? It doesn’t have to be that detailed, but a situation where you weren’t doing that previously, where now you’ve made a shift around that.

Jessica Shaw: Absolutely a big one comes to mind. It’s something that I’m, I’m still passionate about and I realized, I remember the exact moment I was standing in our, our corporate office and I was having a conversation and it clicked that me and the person I was speaking with are not on the same page with the importance of our new hire onboarding, specifically the learning piece of new hire, onboarding.

There were assumptions about what our new team members are coming in with, and then what the resulting gap is between that and where we need them to be operating independently at their potential. So being able to call a timeout and reset and say. Let me walk you through exactly what this impact is in the moment, and then how it continues on for the rest of their time with us was very helpful to say.

Oh, okay. That makes more sense, essentially. That makes more sense. ’cause you know, we were over here making a big deal out of some resources that we needed, but we, I was not communicating the scope and scale of a, what we were trying to do, and b, what the impact of our plan rolled out in full would be.

So once, once we cleared that up, I, it wasn’t an overnight change, but the things were set in motion that now have resulted in, even adding a resource to the team, which was, which is huge. So we’re able to, as I said, roll out the plan as we envision it, now that we’re all on the same page with why it’s so important.

Melody Wilding: Mm. Fantastic. And yeah, and especially in this world that we’re in right now, getting, getting a full-time resource is not always the easiest thing. You know, I have people that have a years long campaign trying to get that pushed through, and I think that example you’re talking about is the difference between just speaking at someone and having your communication really click.

Land with them. So they understand why is this needed. And you no longer feel like you’re trying to be the squeaky wheel and trying to fight for someone’s attention, or just complaining. You are approaching them and, well, you could tell me if this is true, but what we hear from people is they feel like they’re

less of a subordinate, like, please gimme this resource, we really need this, this would really help us a lot, and more as a partner in advancing the strategic goals. Yeah. How would you say that has felt for you differently? 

Jessica Shaw: I would absolutely agree with that. And to your point of, of waiting for resources, we have been waiting and conversating about this resource for,

well, since the beginning of 2024. So it, we had been waiting, but I do remember the exact conversation when I got the approval and I was discussing with my leader a primary issue that, that we was a, a known issue. And I essentially said, I hear you and here’s what I need and here’s what the impact would be.

And it was in that conversation that, we received the approval, there were some additional stipulations along with it, but an approval is an approval. And we are off to the races with it. 

Melody Wilding: That’s right. You, you take it and you move the ball forward. 

Jessica Shaw: Yes. 

Melody Wilding: One of the other, breakthroughs that you shared with me was being able to tailor your communication to speak to the different senior stakeholders you have, especially having to ramp up with these new leaders, so.

Tell me how, how has that looked like for you now compared to maybe earlier this year or last year? 

Jessica Shaw: Yeah. The moment I had such an epiphany around the communication styles and like even talking about it, I can like feel the lightness that came to me when I had this epiphany. So I essentially have three key stakeholders.

One is my boss, one is over our operations, and one is over our technical services. Very different folks, very, brilliant. Very skilled, very different. I realized that between the four of us, we each sit in a different communication style quadrant, and so much made sense to me when I realized that because a lot of times I am needing to communicate with, the two stakeholders that are not my leader

at the same time with my leader essentially CC’d on the emails. So I’m, I’m trying to capture all three of their styles. This was unbeknownst to me prior to seeing the model trying to speak the, all three of their languages while none of those languages being native to me. so when I realized that, and I even came to one of the open coaching calls and said, okay, how do I do this when all three of them are in the group, in the same group?

It became so much more. It, it became easier for me. What, what I think the true difference has been for me is the reduction in mental load to just send one email. So yes, I do think that they have seen improvement. I do think that I’m getting, faster, more concise responses from these three folks. And that’s awesome. And for the most vast majority, it’s, I, I’m, I am, you know, getting approval on my recommendations or whatever the case might be. It’s a, it’s a positive outcome for me. But the more valuable outcome for me is the reduction in the mental load, the cognitive load of, I just have to send one email.

I just have to share one idea and ask for approval. What’s the problem? So that is for me, the real, the real win. It’s not, and I’m not just saying. You know, I’m not gonna overthink this email. I’m just gonna type, type, type, and hit send. It’s not that it’s very deliberate. It’s, it’s very intentional based on their communication style.

It’s just not taking me days to write a simple email. So that’s, that’s been my just really great experience with the communication styles. 

Melody Wilding: Yes. What lightness was the word you used? Yes. Yeah. And when, when you can move faster. I mean, you can reappropriate or reapportion that time to other high value work and just feel more at ease.

You know, just move through the work, just not with this burden on you. And when you were talking about, yes, there’s a model we teach in the program for being able to quickly diagnose or assess the types of communication styles of the leaders or cross-functional partners, clients, whoever it is that you’re working with.

It’s almost like you get x-ray vision and you can start to see, oh, now I understand why I’ve been frustrated with this person. Now I understand why. I’ve been feeling like I’m banging my head against a wall, trying to get an answer from them or convince them of something. One thing is, we are not advocating for anyone to change totally who they are.

But what I hear you saying is now you’re able, you’ve internalized some of those principles about, okay, I know I’m speaking with a commander. Here are the different ways I need to shift some of the language or the phrasing I’m using. So you can quickly go through that heuristic in your head to get that email out more quickly while having it be more effective and not watering down your approach.

So what have you found there? Because you know, a lot of people who come into our program, they are self-confessed people pleasers. And a lot of them are nervous, like, I don’t wanna turn into a chameleon. I don’t wanna be someone I’m not, just to feel like I am influencing the senior leaders. So how have you straddled that line for yourself?

Jessica Shaw: Yes, definitely a part of the People Pleaser club. so I, I absolutely identify with that. What comes to mind for me first is throughout your book, your podcast, this program, you are very, helpful in shifting the perspective of how we receive communication, lack of communication, certain words, certain phrases, Kind of calling out reality, like, yeah, they’re busy. Yeah, this is what they’re looking for. Here’s a different way you can think about it. So for me it’s, it absolutely feels within my integrity. There’s nothing that I’ve experienced in the program that has come close to making me feel like I’m being asked to step out of my integrity or authenticity.

It’s to the way I genuinely feel it is, it’s, it’s getting in my brain and just organizing what’s already in there in a different, more effective way. So it, it’s nothing that I’m not, it is certainly not anything not true. It’s just a cleaner, lighter version of my thoughts, and that’s, and that then is able to effectively bridge over to whoever I’m communicating with.

Melody Wilding: Yeah. And I, I think the cool part about that is that confidence and that self-assuredness comes through in your communication. It becomes this virtuous cycle of, because you are more grounded in what you’re saying, that non-verbal adds more credibility to what you’re saying and the cycle goes round and round in a good way, which is wonderful.

And on that note, are there other, or I should ask,

Jessica Shaw: The word that just popped into my head, was excited in the sense that I’m more excited for opportunities to communicate, with senior folks.

There was, I’ve been waiting to use, a best practice that you shared. I don’t remember this section, but when you hop on a Zoom or a teams call early and you’re on with a senior leader and you just have a minute or two, and how to leverage that time most effectively. I haven’t had the opportunity to do that yet, but I’m excited to.

so I see different pockets of opportunity that I didn’t see before. I honestly am starting to see my own contributions in a different way because it’s not just, the communication isn’t just the words coming out of my mouth or the things I’m typing in an email, the, it’s a mindset shift. It’s genuinely me looking at things differently.

Again, scope and scale. It’s, I’m not just working on this one thing right in front of me today. I’m, I’m working on this strategic long game and have a wonderful team around me to support that as well. So I, it’s a very like, fundamental mindset shift that I’m experiencing that happens to manifest in some different ways.

Melody Wilding: Yes, and what you’re referring to is that tool of the pocket update when you have those few minutes with an executive. And most of us fritter that away and we’re like, oh yeah, it’s been busy. Oh, making small talk about the holidays coming up and whatever it is. And we, we lose that, what seems like a small

situation, but all of those add up. And a, a main philosophy or approach in the program is that every interaction you have is either building your credibility and your reputation, or undermining it, and in a way that can be freeing because. We, we put so much stock in these, like that one time end of year presentation or that all hands, like these high visibility moments when in fact it’s the email you were talking about sending, or the Slack or teams message or that small talk.

It’s all these little moments that add up to this picture someone has of your overall perception. And for you to feel more in control and confident and good about that, is huge. That’s something that you can’t necessarily put a quantification on, which is, which is wonderful. Yeah, I know, I know.

Something else that you did was also start a career advancement conversation with your boss about your future. So take us through, through that moment, how that went, how you have framed it, what that is meaning for you. 

Jessica Shaw: Yeah, and it’s, it’s, it’s interesting. It’s, more of a work in progress, in a really good way than I had initially thought it was.

Again, changes were happening, I’d say over the last two years, and then also within the last year is when we’ve had, some significant changes in the senior leadership, especially the senior leadership that influences my world the most. So me taking a look at knowing my passion as leadership coaching, knowing that learning, learning and development is, evolving in the organization right now.

Wanting to give both of those their due respect. So it’s, it’s me figuring out, what’s, what’s most important to me? What’s most meaningful to me? Based on the skills and experience that I have where I thought I had a pretty significant amount of clarity, as I’m working through this program, I’m seeing myself differently.

I’m seeing my skills, the value that I bring differently. I was not doing myself justice in how I was. Even my internal conversations about the work that I do. So as of today, in this moment, I am, I’m taking a step back from more specific planning because I am re-looking at myself and what my capabilities are.

And in the program talking about sharing and communicating, especially the stuff that you’re interested in doing. Not necessarily everything that you do, but what you’re interested in doing going forward. I’m asking myself right now, what is that? What, what is the stuff that you’re interested in doing going forward?

So I feel like career conversations have, they’ve, they’ve gone back internal. Which I’m excited about because the, that self-awareness and I guess like, okay, what else do I wanna be when I grow up? If I’m 45 now still figuring that out, what, you know, what is that, that’s really meaningful to me now that I’m looking at myself self through a more generous lens.

And, and perhaps, maybe generous isn’t the right word. Maybe it’s realistic, a more realistic lens. 

Melody Wilding: Well, and it sounds like also you’re, you’re trying to find that intersection of what do I enjoy doing and what brings the organization value? Because ultimately that’s going to be satisfying for you and it builds the strongest business case for here’s why I want to do this, and the benefit for the organization, and That’s right.

I think it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s such a great reminder for all of us because as recovering people pleasers, it’s so common for us to just fall into mm-hmm. The next thing or, oh, Jessica, you would be great for this initiative, and all of a sudden you’re, you feel like you’re out to sea. You don’t really have anything anchoring where you want to go.

And so for you to, to be coming back to that, as you said, we, we are very much believers in do not bring visibility to everything you do because then you’re known for nothing or you are, you’re going to be known for things you no longer want to be doing. So we, we have to be intentional about that to be the ones who are crafting our narrative, because if we don’t, it will,

just happenstance, and that may not be the story we like being told. So we have more control of this than we actually think. 

Jessica Shaw: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Yep. And I, there, there was some, I, I’ve called it drifting in my, I’ve been with the organization for 21 years, but I’ve had a handful of different roles and some of them I’ve drifted into and very luckily,

they were great. I’ve, I’m really appreciative and have a lot of gratitude, especially for everything I’ve learned along the way. But this is, again, in my forties, the time that I’m stopping and saying, wait, what do I want? What do I want to do in, you know, when I, when I grow up, with my future?

So again, the timing of speak like a leader, finding you in general has been amazing because it’s helping me, it’s giving me an angle of self-reflection that I didn’t realize I was missing. I do a lot of self work and reflection and internal, just attempted accountability, I’ll call it. But this was a, this was a, a pocket that I

just didn’t realize I was missing and it’s been an incredible add to my toolbox of self-discovery. 

Melody Wilding: As someone who is, you are deeply immersed in the L and D world, so you see a lot of coaching programs, development programs as you said, you’re, you are calling in life as leadership coaching as well.

Yeah. What drew you to speak like a senior leader? Because. You’ve seen a lot. You’ve probably done a lot in the past. So what made you say this this is the program for me.

Jessica Shaw: I had a complete trust that it would be beneficial in an actionable way. So hearing you on the podcast, hearing you on your podcast, Dave’s podcast. Your podcast, the book. Hearing, while listening to the book, hearing and steal this script. And I, I tell people, and she says, steal this script because it’s so tactical.

There you there. The, I knew there was gonna be a magical balance between the concept or the why behind things. And then the what, and here’s what you do about it or the how. Here’s what you do and how you do it. So. There’s a, you know, the term just bang for bang for my buck. I knew it was gonna be there.

I knew there was gonna be value in the program, and I knew it was going to respect my time as a, I have two kids, two boys. They’re six and nine years old. They’re in all kind of sports. Working full time. So life is busy and I don’t have time right now for a lot of concept and theory without action.

As much as I would love to just ponder the wiles of humanity. But I knew that this program was gonna be, w absolutely worth it. And I like the self-paced. Sometimes I can crush it in a weekend and sometimes I’m spending all day Saturday and Sunday at the basketball court. So I, I like the self-paced, but then, and then having the option to also come together and submit questions and get really detailed answers, it’s really been,

I can’t imagine a more perfect balance of time, commitment, and value, for where my life is right now. 

Melody Wilding: I appreciate you sharing that. ’cause we have, we have done a lot of. Work and put a lot of thought into making sure the design of the program is for someone like you. You, you are our ideal person.

Someone who is in a demanding role, who is midlife mid-career. You have kids, you have probably pets. You gotta feed yourself and take care of yourself within all of this. And like you said, you don’t have time to go through a rambling two hour recording to pull out one little gem. And so, as you were saying, just to for context, for anyone listening when you come in to speak like a senior leader, the curriculum is all there for you.

We give you a recommended study plan if you want to follow our guided track, so to speak, to pace yourself through it. But if you’re someone like Jessica, who you have pockets of time here and there while the kids are playing basketball, you can go through more lessons in that time. You can skip to one of the modules that’s most relevant for you right now.

A lot of people who, are in similar situations to you, especially moms I’ve heard from, have said they really appreciate the private podcast we have. So all of the lessons, all of the recordings are on a private podcast, so you can listen from your phone just like you would any other show while you’re in the car, while you’re doing laundry or making dinner.

So it makes it so easy to optimize those little segments of time you do have and. Also, just to pick up on what you said, my emphasis is always on helping you. Be more efficient with the time you do have. So I never wanna give you a journaling exercise that’s going to take an hour out of your day. I wanna give you a tool that you can go into writing your next email with and have it take you 10 minutes instead of 30 minutes.

And something that you can use going forward, just slotted into your day to day rather than being another, to do or burden you have on you. 

Jessica Shaw: Right. Yep. And, and it, it came to mind as well, the videos. I know, like you said, I know I can pop in and watch a video and learn from it. They’re great lengths. I think they’re mostly like between seven and 10 minutes.

Mm-hmm. so they’re, they’re perfect length. I know I’m gonna get something out of it, and then I can walk away from it and then come back to it later. And so they’re, they’re self-contained again, a, a really great balance between cohesion, within the sections, but also self-contained videos. And then the skill drills on top of that to, like I have in my Outlook tasks today, skill drill, scope and scale.

Go revisit my scope and scale skill drill. so it’s, yeah, it’s been really great to, to go at whatever inconsistent pace I need to go in. 

Melody Wilding: Consistent. Hey, what I, I said this, maybe a week or two ago on our call, that imperfect effort still gets results, and I think you are the perfect example of that because your effort has been perfect for where you are at this stage in your life, in your career, and you’re a great example of someone who is taking what they need.

From the program and also using, do you wanna touch on just the live coaching and accountability components of it? Because yes, we have the self-paced portion, which is for adults, the way we learn, and this being an L and D. Yep. We, we learn through synthesizing and practice and being able to talk things out and apply them and implement, and so that’s why we have it set up as we do.

You can go through the actual learning, sort of me lecturing and teaching you. You can go through that on your own time, but then we have the community space where you can come in, you can get daily coaching, you can submit, you were talking about skill drills. So those are practice exercises we have where you can simulate running through some of the concepts before you go do them in the real world.

And myself and my coaching team will give you in-depth feedback on that. Or you can ask a question there about, oh, I have this meeting coming up. How should I approach X, Y, Z? Or be ready for this tough question I may get. Or you can also raise your hand for live coaching on our weekly calls and get feedback there as well.

So we wanna make sure we’re striking this balance of, yes, you have that learning, but you also have that structured support to be applying this to your own individual situation. Yeah. 

Jessica Shaw: Yeah, yeah. And, and, My learning does continue in the community, even if in the online community, even if I’m not the one typing in questions.

So a lot of times I don’t have time, and I’m getting a lot out of the material and the skill drills. But reading through other people’s. Situations and experiences and then either seeing how they or the community or you or your coaching team apply the lessons to those experiences is really helpful in and of itself.

’cause obviously I’m like in survival mode in my own world, my own bubble. So I’m applying things in a certain way, but then I, I get to, secondhand experience, how others are applying them and that alone. So just being a casual reader for the majority of my time in the online community is, is a, a whole other learning stream for me in the program.

Melody Wilding: Yes. Yeah. Learning through the osmosis and observation of others. I’m in coaching programs myself and I have learned so much from just r reading and watching and listening to the other people in the program getting coached because even though you all come from different. Literally parts of the world in different industries.

There’s so many commonalities in the struggles you face, whether it’s getting your voice heard in meetings or being able to quickly organize your thoughts to deliver a cohesive response, or write an email that gets a response and gets you, deal with someone who may be stealing credit for your work or has a more dominant style than you.

There’s so many of these situations that across the board. Have similarities. So the coaching we’re giving to somebody else, you could be like, oh wow, I can use that. That’s really useful for me. 

Jessica Shaw: Yeah, absolutely. And that I, that’s on more than one occasion I have said, oh, I can, lemme put that in my pocket.

Yeah. 

Melody Wilding: Jessica, as we’re wrapping up here, thank you so much for your time. my last question for you is, what would you say to someone who is thinking about joining Speak Like a Senior Leader? Would you recommend it to them? And why? What would you tell them? 

Jessica Shaw: Uh, absolutely a thousand times over. I recommend it to my colleagues.

I sometimes will explain to them, here’s what I’m doing in this email and here’s why, and you should get the book and listen to the podcast and sign up for the next cohort. I wanna bring it to a couple of groups within my organization. So I’m actively, looking to get more people that I

have impact on, and I am impacted by into the program. Like I said, this was a, this was an unknown pocket for me, and it’s not just the external communication. I’m going to. Communicate more clearly to these types of audiences. The internal shift that I have experienced in this program has been just as powerful, if not more.

Absolutely is something I will take with me well beyond the program. so I, I could not recommend the program any more than I do, like run, don’t walk, situation. And I, and. As we were talking about, you can take what you need from the program. There’s, there is so much good tactical, actionable information, but as you said, I remember you said in, in the call a couple weeks ago, imperfection is better than not doing it at all.

And even if I took one lesson out of each of the sections, it would still, I would be exponentially more impactful in my role, and also exponentially learning about myself and reframing the work that I do to myself. So either way, you look at it, there’s incredible value. 

Melody Wilding: Jessica, thank you so, so much for being here.

Jessica Shaw: My pleasure.